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post #31 of 159 (permalink) Old 11-30-2007, 12:04 PM
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Re: Despedida For Venezuela

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When a president starts making anti-democractic decisions like forbidding freedom of speech or changing the constitution to suit his interests, then it's irrelevant whether he was elected by the majority of the population or not.
Finally some common sense in this thread. I don't care whether he got the maority of votes or not (which is debatable, giving all the fraud accusations and the all the harassment to the opposition). Even if he did get the majority of votes, there are some basic human rights that cannot be violated. Hitler got the votes too, you know.

The comparison with Bush is wrong also. I despise Bush but at least he's leaving now that his term is ending (thanks God). He's not reforming the constitution to saty in power for ever, he's not beating up those who rally against him, etc etc.

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post #32 of 159 (permalink) Old 11-30-2007, 12:06 PM
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Re: Despedida For Venezuela

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Juan Carlos should be ashamed that Aznar officaly supported a coup d"etat against a democratically elected president i.e Chavez in 2002
Actually, the first one to organize a coup d'Etat against a democratically elected president was Mr. Chavez, did you know that?


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post #33 of 159 (permalink) Old 11-30-2007, 12:46 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Despedida For Venezuela

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The comparison with Bush is wrong also. I despise Bush but at least he's leaving now that his term is ending (thanks God). He's not reforming the constitution to saty in power for ever, he's not beating up those who rally against him, etc etc.
True.
Bush has been something of a disaster, but it is understandable how he managed to get re-elected, given public fears after 9/11.
And for anyone saying that Chavez only wants to be eligible for perpetual re-election, well Fidel gets re-elected too. The only problem is that opposition candidates are forbidden and even Fidel can win on that playing field.
No, if Chavez gets the constitution changed to be able to run again and also gets the power to totally control the press, it spells the end of democracy.

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post #34 of 159 (permalink) Old 11-30-2007, 01:34 PM
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Re: Despedida For Venezuela

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If you had been around in 1959 you would probably have confidently said exactly the same thing about Castro.
well, castro had quite some backup, didn't he? if i was the states, i would hesitate attacking some weirdo who's best friends have tons of nuclear weapons and whose impact on the world stage is massive everywhere, from the border of alaska to the caribbean.

and once again, on the other hand: if castro really would've been life-threatening to the u.s., they'd have killed him. period. but they didn't care enough about that small island with no resources and just a couple of million inhabitants.

they did care about chile. or noriega. or the contras. or the koreas. and we all know how those stories went.

chavez on the other hand is a joke. his country's corrupt to the bone, his military is weaker than even colombia or ecuador (back by the u.s.) and his backup is weaker than weak (bolivia, cuba etc.).

america lets those guys play a bit, that's all. if they actually DO step on america's toes in the future, they'll act, no doubt about that. the united states own latin america, always have, always will.
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post #35 of 159 (permalink) Old 11-30-2007, 03:06 PM
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Re: Despedida For Venezuela

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Finally some common sense in this thread. I don't care whether he got the maority of votes or not (which is debatable, giving all the fraud accusations and the all the harassment to the opposition). Even if he did get the majority of votes, there are some basic human rights that cannot be violated. Hitler got the votes too, you know.
The Carter Centre had independently certified the results of all his past elections and referendums. Obviously the opposition had, and still has, a problem stomaching the idea that Chavez is very popular among the vast majority of Venezuelans, hence the accusations of fraud.

As for the referendum on the constitution, I don't see what the big deal is about. Let the Venezuelan people decide for themselves what they want in a constitution and in a leader. The rest of us should just butt out. But even if Chavez loses, his term will end in 2013 and democracy will be served - what more do ppl want?

Keep in mind that Chavez is proposing his constitutional reforms in a completely democratic manner. A real dictator, a la Musharraf or Hitler, wouldn't have even bothered.

Some people are just 100% set on painting him as a dictator when the facts indicate otherwise.

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post #36 of 159 (permalink) Old 11-30-2007, 03:21 PM
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Re: Despedida For Venezuela

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Actually, the first one to organize a coup d'Etat against a democratically elected president was Mr. Chavez, did you know that?

Yeah he led a coup against president Carlos Andres Perez who was responsible for the massacre of up to 3,000 of his own people in 1989. His forces even tried to hide the bodies. If thats not a reason for a general uprising than I don't know what is.

Besides Chavez did get arrested for that and went to prison for it. Interestingly enough, Chavez didn't incarcerate any of the leaders who organised the coup in 2002 although he perfectly could have. Any other country in the world, including the United States - the self-proclaimed beacon of democracy - would have executed them no questions asked.

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post #37 of 159 (permalink) Old 11-30-2007, 03:25 PM
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Re: Despedida For Venezuela

good point, and you should remind him the role the free venezuelian press played in 2002 to take chavez over
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post #38 of 159 (permalink) Old 11-30-2007, 03:29 PM
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Re: Despedida For Venezuela

Chavez is very theatrical and sometimes grotesque , but does that make him a dictator
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post #39 of 159 (permalink) Old 11-30-2007, 04:21 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Despedida For Venezuela

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Chavez is very theatrical and sometimes grotesque , but does that make him a dictator
No. We have already been through this. But if he succeeds on Sunday it will only be a matter of time before he moves to a one-party state and then he will be a dictator. Given that he kisses the ass of the Communist Dictator Fidel Castro, anyone who denies that Chavez is not intent on becoming a Communist dictator is very naive.

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post #40 of 159 (permalink) Old 11-30-2007, 04:28 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Despedida For Venezuela

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they did care about chile. or noriega. or the contras. or the koreas. and we all know how those stories went.
Maybe you mean Sandinistas. Do you kinow who is the president of Nicaragua now?

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post #41 of 159 (permalink) Old 11-30-2007, 04:31 PM
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Re: Despedida For Venezuela

alright, but what exactly makes you think that the referendum will lead to a one party state , other than saying we are naive
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post #42 of 159 (permalink) Old 11-30-2007, 04:34 PM
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Re: Despedida For Venezuela

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Maybe you mean Sandinistas. Do you kinow who is the president of Nicaragua now?
the CIA financed the Contras with money from weapons sold to Iran
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post #43 of 159 (permalink) Old 11-30-2007, 05:48 PM
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Re: Despedida For Venezuela

I've always wondered why there should be limits on a president's time in office if the people want him to remain. Having a vote to determine if the constitution is changed seems sensible to me. If people want a change it changes, if not it doesn't. The constitution of many countries should be reviewed imo.

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When a president starts making anti-democractic decisions like forbidding freedom of speech or changing the constitution to suit his interests, then it's irrelevant whether he was elected by the majority of the population or not.
No no no. For a start in all countries (maybe there is 1 or 2 exceptions but i'd be surprised) there is not complete freedom of speech. The same can be said for Venezuela. If people vote for constitutional change on an issue like this then there is no problem with that change.

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Finally some common sense in this thread. I don't care whether he got the maority of votes or not (which is debatable, giving all the fraud accusations and the all the harassment to the opposition). Even if he did get the majority of votes, there are some basic human rights that cannot be violated. Hitler got the votes too, you know.

The comparison with Bush is wrong also. I despise Bush but at least he's leaving now that his term is ending (thanks God). He's not reforming the constitution to saty in power for ever, he's not beating up those who rally against him, etc etc.

Well, I take Latin American politics and one of my lecturers was in Venezuela to oversee the vote and according to her and others like her the elections did seem to be free and fair. Of course that isn't proof, but there is also no proof that they were unfair.
What are these human rights Julio? Changing a countries constitution certainly isn't against human rights. Hitler is different. I agree totally that people who get majority support shouldn't necessarily be allowed to be in charge of a country, but Chavez has done nothing like Hitler. Indeed, what is it that Chavez has done that is so bad? There have been a few things, but some would say he's amongst the most democratic leaders in the world considering the amount of elections he's had. Parts of the media still operates it's anti-Chavez propaganda despite helping in the attempted coup against him. He implements socialist policies, but there's nothing wrong with that.

In Britain we have a guy who wasn't even elected as our prime-minister but no-one seems to see it is anti-democratic.

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post #44 of 159 (permalink) Old 11-30-2007, 06:17 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Despedida For Venezuela

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the CIA financed the Contras with money from weapons sold to Iran
Is that breaking news?
Actually Rrainer was listing opponents of the CIA.

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post #45 of 159 (permalink) Old 11-30-2007, 06:19 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Despedida For Venezuela

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alright, but what exactly makes you think that the referendum will lead to a one party state , other than saying we are naive
Events in the country that is the model for Chavez. I think it is plain enough.

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