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post #16 of 203 (permalink) Old 11-28-2007, 08:23 PM
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Re: Sudanese hissy fits over teddy bear

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So yes, there are huge differences. But it is definitely not clear that one set of criminal standards is better than another.
that is your cultural relativist view , to me and for many it is pretty clear , i'd rather be judged anywhere in Europe or in the USA than in a muslim country
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post #17 of 203 (permalink) Old 11-28-2007, 08:48 PM
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Re: Sudanese hissy fits over teddy bear

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that is your cultural relativist view , to me and for many it is pretty clear , i'd rather be judged anywhere in Europe or in the USA than in a muslim country
Well I think you put it best: what you wrote is your view.
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post #18 of 203 (permalink) Old 11-28-2007, 08:58 PM
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Re: Sudanese hissy fits over teddy bear

Well, if your crime is bigamy, you'd prefer to be judged in a muslim country.
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post #19 of 203 (permalink) Old 11-28-2007, 09:40 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Sudanese hissy fits over teddy bear

Agree with all - religion and the law should not mix.
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post #20 of 203 (permalink) Old 11-28-2007, 09:42 PM
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Re: Sudanese hissy fits over teddy bear

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That is not correct at all. Free speech has well known limits. Things spoken which can (or is assumed to be able to incite) violence are absolutely not protected under US free speech rights.
FIrst: I said "denigrating" a religion. Not inciting to violence. You are confusing two different things.

Second: Inciting to violence can only be punished in the US when the speech is "directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action".

A mere offensive statement about a religion, a dogma, or a religious figure (like the Pope) cannot be constituionally punished in the US. This is very clear in the US and if you want to read more about the differences between the US and Europe on this topic, I suggest an article written by Robert Post (A Yale Law Professor) commenting the case of the Dannish cartoons.

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post #21 of 203 (permalink) Old 11-28-2007, 09:43 PM
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Re: Sudanese hissy fits over teddy bear

These Muslim countries live in the dark ages.

Very backward religion IMO.
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post #22 of 203 (permalink) Old 11-28-2007, 10:22 PM
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Re: Sudanese hissy fits over teddy bear

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These Muslim countries live in the dark ages.

Very backward religion IMO.
I agree with this. It really does seem that Muslim countries are some 1,000 years behind everyone else.
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post #23 of 203 (permalink) Old 11-28-2007, 10:25 PM
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Re: Sudanese hissy fits over teddy bear

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This is similar to the "outrage" by both Christians and Jewish people in the US when Jesus Christ Superstar arrived on Broadway.

There are some people who treat religion only in serious matters and cannot see a "lighter" version of it.
Was anybody from the cast of Jesus Christ Superstar arrested? Flogged? No, I didn't think so!

You're confusing an individual's right to protest, which is Constitutionally protected in the US, with a government prosecution of an allegedly illegal act. They are simply not the same thing. You're searching for a moral equivalence that does not exist.

If the outage directed at this poor teacher were limited to the editorials and few picket lines that greeted Jesus Christ Superstar, then there would be no issue. The significant difference between the two scenarios you try to compare is that, in the Sudan, unlike the US, there is a state prosecution.
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post #24 of 203 (permalink) Old 11-28-2007, 10:42 PM
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Re: Sudanese hissy fits over teddy bear

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Have an abortion (or help someone else) in some states in the USA. Off to jail.
Not true. Abortion is legal in all states.
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post #25 of 203 (permalink) Old 11-28-2007, 11:08 PM
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Re: Sudanese hissy fits over teddy bear

Its just another of the countless signs that people have all lost touch with HUMANITY & the entire globe is flying to all damned hell.

More often than not i am throughly disgusted with this planet & what it has become...but more than anything i know it is the people in charge that make it worse everyday & that says something about all of us.
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post #26 of 203 (permalink) Old 11-28-2007, 11:51 PM
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Re: Sudanese hissy fits over teddy bear

MORE QUOTES

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071128/...ritish_teacher

Quote:
Sudan's top clerics said in a statement Wednesday that the full measure of the law should be applied against Gibbons, calling the incident part of a broader Western "plot" against Islam.

The Sudanese clerics said this was blasphemy and believed it was intentional.

"What has happened was not haphazard or carried out of ignorance, but rather a calculated action and another ring in the circles of plotting against Islam," the Sudanese Assembly of the Ulemas said the statement.

"It is part of the campaign of the so-called war against terrorism and the intense media campaign against Islam," they said.

I was so very upset today to read this story. Here is a woman setting out to make a small difference in this world, and this is her reward.

It's very hard to try and be rational with muslims who are extremist. I don't know how many of you remember your elementary school days, but I remember a similar exercise in my 2nd grade. Instead it was a turtle, and not a bear, for me. We named the turtle. Each student got to carry it home and we had to write about the turtle. I remember getting to carry the turtle home for the weekend and spending most of the time staring at it and feeding it lettuce.

So, this wasn't some spiteful anti Islam mission. This should have been understood without a need for arresting her. A simple, "change the bear's name" would have been the rational manner in which to handle this situation. But, unfortunately, we're dealing with a religion that makes it very hard for others to practice tolerance. More and more, each day, I find it harder and harder to look at the religion of Islam with rose colored glasses...



p.s. R.Federer Abortion is legal in the US.
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post #27 of 203 (permalink) Old 11-29-2007, 12:07 AM
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Re: Sudanese hissy fits over teddy bear

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MORE QUOTES

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071128/...ritish_teacher




I was so very upset today to read this story. Here is a woman setting out to make a small difference in this world, and this is her reward.

It's very hard to try and be rational with muslims who are extremist. I don't know how many of you remember your elementary school days, but I remember a similar exercise in my 2nd grade. Instead it was a turtle, and not a bear, for me. We named the turtle. Each student got to carry it home and we had to write about the turtle. I remember getting to carry the turtle home for the weekend and spending most of the time staring at it and feeding it lettuce.

So, this wasn't some spiteful anti Islam mission. This should have been understood without a need for arresting her. A simple, "change the bear's name" would have been the rational manner in which to handle this situation. But, unfortunately, we're dealing with a religion that makes it very hard for others to practice tolerance. More and more, each day, I find it harder and harder to look at the religion of Islam with rose colored glasses...


great post.

The thing i don't get...maybe this is because i never belonged to any one religion-

but i thought it was supposed to bring people together but more & more every religion seems more about dividing people which is just in my opinion seriously stupid & wrong...

if you believe in god how hard can it be to believe that we are all here together for a reason?

nobodys perfect.
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post #28 of 203 (permalink) Old 11-29-2007, 03:07 AM
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Re: Sudanese hissy fits over teddy bear

How long was the teacher in Sudan for?

Was she aware of the socio-cultural and socio-political climate she was in?

Did the prosecutors take into account whether she was aware what the implications of naming a teddy bear "muhammad" were?

Also, is this issue all down to religion?

I'm sure there are many other details that need to be uncovered, but for now those are the main ones I'm interested in.

That said, I reckon the reaction was too extreme. Maybe a warning could've been suffice, but then again this is coming from my POV which is partly influenced by the environment I'm living in.
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post #29 of 203 (permalink) Old 11-29-2007, 03:57 AM
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Re: Sudanese hissy fits over teddy bear

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Not true. Abortion is legal in all states.
Yeah, I thought so. Isn't that what Roe v Wade was all about:- Abortion is a constitutional right? And so American politics has been mired down in the abortion issue for years because the religious right just can't accept that they are not calling the shots for everyone.

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post #30 of 203 (permalink) Old 11-29-2007, 04:08 AM
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Re: Sudanese hissy fits over teddy bear

Well, this seems to be a very serious crime. But wasn't it the little Sudanese children that did the naming? So maybe a fit punishment would be to take a knife and cut out the tongues of all the little blasphemers. That should resurrect the good name of Muhammad.

In truth, it is almost possible to believe that even the criminal Muslim government of Sudan could seriously think this is of any importance. It is quite obvious that they are just making noise, to detract attention from the genocide they are committing in Darfur.

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