Should the US learn tolerance from its European brothers? - MensTennisForums.com

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post #1 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-01-2007, 01:10 PM Thread Starter
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Should the US learn tolerance from its European brothers?

Given the storm of controversy surrounding the citizens of the USA just for wanting to protect their borders from illegal aliens, perhaps the US should think more like their ''oh so civilised'' brothers across the pond when it comes to dealing with immigrants, even legal ones.

YAHOO reports that the largest political party in Switzerland is campaigning with a poster that shows 3 white sheep kicking a black sheep out of Switzerland. The party wants a law whereby when an immigrant is to be deported for any crime, his entire family will be deported too.

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post #2 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-01-2007, 01:14 PM
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Re: Should the US learn tolerance from its European brothers?

The link doesn't work and you are trying to prove what exactly.

On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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post #3 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-01-2007, 01:18 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Should the US learn tolerance from its European brothers?

I can not make the link work. I am not trying to prove anything. I am just throwing some light on the fact that if the Republican Party ran a poster of 3 white American sheep kicking a black sheep out of the US, MTF would light up with anti-US comments. But Switzerland? they are so civilised there, aren't they?

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post #4 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-01-2007, 01:23 PM
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Re: Should the US learn tolerance from its European brothers?

That is old news and are the Swiss Peoples Party the largest party in Switzerland? I doubt it.

Blocher is a just populist with too much money and is always on about foreigners and a very large percentage of the population is foreign. Considering the process of obtaining Swiss citizenship isn't straightforward and problematic, but they have their reasons for it ( no this does not mean I agree with them fully).

Would you please use the country and not the whole continent or I'd have to start calling you Tennis Fool, deliberately misleading thread titles.

On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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post #5 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-01-2007, 01:26 PM
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Re: Should the US learn tolerance from its European brothers?

First of all it won't get approved.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g...uof_iTc0DSWTlQ

Swiss Deportation Policy Draws Criticism

By FRANK JORDANS – 1 hour ago

GENEVA (AP) — The campaign poster was blatant in its xenophobic symbolism: Three white sheep kicking out a black sheep over a caption that read "for more security." The message was not from a fringe force in Switzerland's political scene but from its largest party.

The nationalist Swiss People's Party is proposing a deportation policy that anti-racism campaigners say evokes Nazi-era practices. Under the plan, entire families would be expelled if their children are convicted of a violent crime, drug offenses or benefits fraud.

The party is trying to collect the 100,000 signatures needed to force a referendum on the issue. If approved in a referendum, the law would be the only one of its kind in Europe.

"We believe that parents are responsible for bringing up their children. If they can't do it properly, they will have to bear the consequences," Ueli Maurer, president of the People's Party, told The Associated Press.

Ronnie Bernheim of the Swiss Foundation against Racism and Anti-Semitism said the proposal was similar to the Nazi practice of "Sippenhaft" — or kin liability — whereby relatives of criminals were held responsible for his or her crimes and punished equally.

Similar practices occurred during Stalin's purges in the early days of the Soviet Union and the 1966-76 Cultural Revolution in China, when millions were persecuted for their alleged ideological failings.

"As soon as the first 10 families and their children have been expelled from the country, then things will get better at a stroke," said Maurer, whose party controls the Justice Ministry and shares power in an unwieldy coalition that includes all major parties.

He explained that his party has long campaigned to make deportation compulsory for convicted immigrants rather than an optional and rarely applied punishment.

The party claims foreigners — who make up about 20 percent of the population — are four times more likely to commit crimes than Swiss nationals.

Bernheim said the vast majority of Switzerland's immigrants are law-abiding and warned against generalizations.

"If you don't treat a complicated issue with the necessary nuance and care, then you won't do it justice," he said.

Commentators have expressed horror over the symbolism used by the People's Party to make its point.

"This way of thinking shows an obvious blood-and-soil mentality," read one editorial in the Zurich daily Tages-Anzeiger, calling for a broader public reaction against the campaign.

So far, however, there has been little popular backlash against the posters.

"We haven't had any complaints," said Maurer.

The city of Geneva — home to Switzerland's humanitarian traditions as well as the European headquarters of the United Nations and the U.N. Refugee Agency, or UNHCR — said the campaign was likely to stir up intolerance.

The UNHCR said the law would run contrary to the U.N. refugee convention, of which Switzerland is a signatory.

But observers say the People's Party's hardline stance on immigration could help it in the Oct. 21 national elections. In 2004, the party successfully campaigned for tighter immigration laws using the image of black hands reaching into a pot filled with Swiss passports.

"It's certainly no coincidence that the People's Party launched this initiative before the elections," said Oliver Geden, a political scientist at the Berlin Institute for International and Security Affairs.

He said provocative campaigns such as this had worked well for the party in the past.

"The symbol of the black sheep was clearly intended to have a double meaning. On the one hand there's the familiar idea of the black sheep, but a lot of voters are also going to associate it with the notion of dark-skinned drug dealers," said Geden.

The party also has put forward a proposal to ban the building of minaret towers alongside mosques. And one of its leading figures, Justice Minister Christoph Blocher, said he wants to soften anti-racism laws because they prevent freedom of speech.

On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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post #6 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-01-2007, 01:30 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Should the US learn tolerance from its European brothers?

The article said it WAS the largest party in Switzerland.

Nevertheless, I wonder how long I will have to wait for a post stating the the Swiss are just a bunch of red-necked a**holes and no wonder the rest of the world can't stand them.

Besides, play doesn't start for another two and a half hours and I have to do something for amusement. ESPN in Latin America shows live tennis every day from the first serve until the lights are turned out. Maybe I should have started a thread praising ESPN for being the best cable channel ever!

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post #7 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-01-2007, 01:32 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Should the US learn tolerance from its European brothers?

Thanks Andreas, for finding the article. I am useless at computer manipulation. I would change the thread title, if I knew how.

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post #8 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-01-2007, 01:33 PM
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Re: Should the US learn tolerance from its European brothers?

Yes the Swiss Peoples Party is one of the biggest parties of Switzerland along with the Socialist party. The center parties are next. I see nothing wrong with the naturalizarion process. I had to go through it and have no complaints about it.

As for what buddholly is trying to say, there is one vital difference between U.S and European immigrants. Example, Latin Americans have the same religion as most Americans whereas many of the immigrants that Swiss peoples party focus on are Albanians most whom are muslim. So reaction to Albanian immigrants is actually stronger than reaction to Mexican immigrants becasue culture clash is greater.

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post #9 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-01-2007, 01:34 PM
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Re: Should the US learn tolerance from its European brothers?

It depends on which part of Switzerland, well the yokel German-speaking farming part is where SPP gets most of its support. The presidency rotates on an annual thing and they have to get the majority of cantons to vote Yes, before this would be approved.

Why else do you think it's so hard to get Swiss citizenship? They needed the guest workers, but when the work dries up, they want them to get lost, forgetting the other side of this problem.

On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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post #10 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-01-2007, 01:36 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Should the US learn tolerance from its European brothers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Jones View Post
As for what buddholly is trying to say, there is one vital difference between U.S and European immigrants. Example, Latin Americans have the same religion as most Americans whereas many of the immigrants that Swiss peoples party focus on are Albanians most whom are muslim. So reaction to Albanian immigrants is actually stronger than reaction to Mexican immigrants becasue culture clash is greater.
What on earth is that supposed to mean? If that is Swiss thinking, then it just proves my point. Europeans are intolerant. So it appears you think the poster would have been better if instead of a black sheep, it should have shown a white sheep clutching a Koran.

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post #11 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-01-2007, 01:43 PM
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Re: Should the US learn tolerance from Switzerland

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Originally Posted by buddyholly View Post
What on earth is that supposed to mean? If that is Swiss thinking, then it just proves my point. Europeans are intolerant. So it appears you think the poster would have been better if instead of a black sheep, it should have shown a white sheep clutching a Koran.
I have changed the reply post to reflect this accurately.

Like I said it depends on where you are in Switzerland, cities and towns are obviously different from rural. Then there is the even divide between Proddies and Catholics in the country.

I actually doubt if Jim Jones speaks French or German, but that is just me though. Like anywhere there are large groups of idiots living within a nation state.

Some immigrants seem to adjust better than others, then again there are more than enough reasons for this and it comes from both sides.

On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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post #12 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-01-2007, 01:49 PM
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Re: Should the US learn tolerance from its European brothers?

Switzerland has always annoyed me.

I hate neutral people.

Now after this brilliant comment by myself (lol), well that swiss proposal sucks of course.

In terms of tolerance, europe owns the united states. Can you imagine a union with the same rules as the European Union in the American continent? With Mexicans being able to enter the United States any time they wanted to?

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post #13 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-01-2007, 01:56 PM
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Re: Should the US learn tolerance from its European brothers?

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Switzerland has always annoyed me.

I hate neutral people.

Now after this brilliant comment by myself (lol), well that swiss proposal sucks of course.

In terms of tolerance, europe owns the united states. Can you imagine a union with the same rules as the European Union in the American continent? With Mexicans being able to enter the United States any time they wanted to?
Your conclusion is based on 20th century history and the lack of violence against minorities in European history?

or on the lack of succesful extreme right political parties in Europe?

or on how easy is to get the nationality in European countries compared with the extreme difficult process in the US where you only have to be born there?

Edit:
If you want to draw a more fair parallel, let me know when Turkey is a member of the UE.

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post #14 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-01-2007, 02:02 PM
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Re: Should the US learn tolerance from its European brothers?

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Originally Posted by Julio1974 View Post
Edit:
If you want to draw a more fair parallel, let me know when Turkey is a member of the UE.
That won't happen for a while and why should it happen, apart from a reason to expand the EU market.

On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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post #15 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-01-2007, 02:27 PM
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Re: Should the US learn tolerance from its European brothers?

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Originally Posted by Andreas Du Rieux View Post
That won't happen for a while and why should it happen, apart from a reason to expand the EU market.
To be honest, I don't know enough to argue in favor or against the entry of Turkey in the UE.

My point was that you cannot say the UE is more tolerant than the US because the US would never let mexicans walk free in the US. Mexico is a very big country, with a very big population, and with a signficant percentage of poor people. It would be suicidal to let mexicans walk free in the US. And I think similar concerns will prevent for a while the entry of Turkey in the UE.

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