Do You Believe In A "God"? - Page 51 - MensTennisForums.com
View Poll Results: Do You Believe In A "God"?
Yes, I'm a Theist (Believe in holy revelation via a "Holy Book") 58 19.14%
Yes, I'm a Deist (Believe in God based upon the existence of the Universe and evolved life) 41 13.53%
Perhaps, I'm Agnostic (As there is conflicting, or a lack of, evidence you just don't know) 77 25.41%
No, I'm an Atheist (science will eventually understand the origins of the Big Bang/Universe) 127 41.91%
Voters: 303. You may not vote on this poll

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post #751 of 774 (permalink) Old 04-24-2014, 04:35 PM
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They are making claims about the nature and origins of consciousness and all existence.

Any claim is backed by scientific evidence, no?


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post #752 of 774 (permalink) Old 04-24-2014, 04:37 PM
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Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

I'm Agnostic, believe there's something out there, but not necessarily a god my brother.

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post #753 of 774 (permalink) Old 04-24-2014, 04:45 PM
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Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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what is the point of not believing in a god? it's better if you believe.
Intellectual honesty?


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post #754 of 774 (permalink) Old 04-24-2014, 05:13 PM
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Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Any claim is backed by scientific evidence, no?
Not at all, they are mere assumptions.
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post #755 of 774 (permalink) Old 04-24-2014, 05:34 PM
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Not at all, they are mere assumptions.

Care to elaborate? Would you say that evolution is an assumption?


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lol, who will beat him? Wawrinka? Berdych? Gulbis? Rosol? Federer?

Only Del Potro can take him out before the semis, and he won't. Nadal is winning the AO, bet your house on it.
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post #756 of 774 (permalink) Old 04-24-2014, 05:42 PM
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Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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You can never prove conclusively that something doesn't exist . Atheists are not making any claims, at least I'm not.
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See the following post:



Or as Russell himself put it:

Source: http://www.personal.kent.edu/~rmuham...isThereGod.htm

I'm just saying that a believer has no burden of proof if he doesn't care whether a non-believer agrees with him. I think it's quite naive to say that "atheists are not making any claims". I live with atheists who are making definitive claims that God doesn't exist. Categorically. But I agree that it tends to be believers trying to convince non-believers, I just acknowledge that both side have their aggressive preachers. I'm not a believer myself but I believe that the burden of proof argument applies to both sides because, in the same way that it's impossible to prove something doesn't exist, it's almost inconceivable that anyone can prove God exists.

Of course we could always take God to be Spinoza's God which undeniably exists

I agree with acacacacademy.
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post #757 of 774 (permalink) Old 04-24-2014, 05:44 PM
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Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Originally Posted by Luinir View Post
what is the point of not believing in a god? it's better if you believe.
I could convert to a religion but I physically cannot make a conscious choice to believe or not believe. It isn't, in my experience, a choice someone can make.

I agree with acacacacademy.
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post #758 of 774 (permalink) Old 04-24-2014, 06:03 PM
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Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Originally Posted by Lopez View Post
Care to elaborate? Would you say that evolution is an assumption?
The universe is an accident that appeared out of nothing, for no reason and with no purpose.
The laws of nature appeared out of nothing, with no cause, for no reason and with no purpose.
Life emerged from dead matter by coincidence, for no reason and with no purpose.
Consciousness is merely an emergent property of the biological brain and a coincidence without purpose.

All of the above are assumptions, not backed by scientific evidence. Scientists do not know why the laws of nature exist or how they came into existence. Scientists don't know why the universe exists or how it came into existence. They don't know why it allows for the emergence of life, of conscious lifeforms, and they certainly do not know what consciousness is. Materialism is an assumption. It's all we can calculate and measure, so we assume it's all that exists.
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post #759 of 774 (permalink) Old 04-24-2014, 09:41 PM
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Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Originally Posted by Luinir View Post
what is the point of not believing in a god? it's better if you believe.
It is better not to delude oneself into believing in something that doesn't have a shred of evidence supporting its existence.



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post #760 of 774 (permalink) Old 04-25-2014, 01:31 AM
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Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mjau! View Post
The universe is an accident that appeared out of nothing, for no reason and with no purpose.
The laws of nature appeared out of nothing, with no cause, for no reason and with no purpose.
Life emerged from dead matter by coincidence, for no reason and with no purpose.
Consciousness is merely an emergent property of the biological brain and a coincidence without purpose.

All of the above are assumptions, not backed by scientific evidence. Scientists do not know why the laws of nature exist or how they came into existence. Scientists don't know why the universe exists or how it came into existence. They don't know why it allows for the emergence of life, of conscious lifeforms, and they certainly do not know what consciousness is. Materialism is an assumption. It's all we can calculate and measure, so we assume it's all that exists.
To jump from all that to 'there must be a god or gods' is quite a leap. A rational and open-minded atheist could agree with everything you said in your second paragraph and simply respond that more research/observation will reveal more scientific truths and that there may well be a god or gods behind everything but it's impossible to know without them revealing themselves and thus a purely speculative hypothesis or, to be less charitable, a very creative fiction. This is basically negative atheism and it makes no unsubstantiated claims.

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post #761 of 774 (permalink) Old 04-25-2014, 01:47 AM
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Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Originally Posted by Mjau! View Post
The universe is an accident that appeared out of nothing, for no reason and with no purpose.
The laws of nature appeared out of nothing, with no cause, for no reason and with no purpose.
Life emerged from dead matter by coincidence, for no reason and with no purpose.
Consciousness is merely an emergent property of the biological brain and a coincidence without purpose.

All of the above are assumptions, not backed by scientific evidence. Scientists do not know why the laws of nature exist or how they came into existence. Scientists don't know why the universe exists or how it came into existence. They don't know why it allows for the emergence of life, of conscious lifeforms, and they certainly do not know what consciousness is. Materialism is an assumption. It's all we can calculate and measure, so we assume it's all that exists.
It is better to believe what evidence suggests than what would give life meaning. I'd rather be right than blissfully ignorant.

The first four statements are true for the most part (though the laws of nature aren't arbitrary, they are just the inherent nature of the universe) if nihilistic. But to claim there is no evidence for them is nonsense. Life as we know it exists by anything but coincidence- the forms best suited to life are those that still exist. Life in its original state may have been "coincidence" to the degree that everything is, but recent evidence shows wasn't all that unlikely over the course of billions of years. As for consciousness, well, I suppose it is merely a manifestation of the type of reasoning that made us best equipped for survival. That isn't the same as being accidental.

But these are all assertions very much backed by evidence. Unlike religion, which is based on faith alone and has unchanging dogma, an evidence-grounded system of beliefs allows one to live in accordance with their own values, and to adjust their beliefs to accommodate for an evolving world. Nihilism is a beautiful thing if you look at it correctly.

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post #762 of 774 (permalink) Old 04-25-2014, 04:39 AM
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Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

I believe in good, she has couple of big knockers, hair long all the way down to waistline and shaven... oh dont let me start again..
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post #763 of 774 (permalink) Old 04-25-2014, 03:03 PM
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Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

Atheists have a biased way of thinking about this matter. If a deist assumes a guiding intelligence behind the creation of the universe and its laws and holds a non-materialistic view of consciousness, they protest. "Can't prove a negative", "no evidence" etc. But atheists believe the accidental-universe-out-of-nothing-with-no-purpose must be considered true until proven wrong. Why is this so much more rational? Why must it be the default position? It is in fact a hypothesis that makes assumptions about the very nature and origins of consciousness and the universe. Assumptions that are not based in scientific evidence. So my question is; what makes one hypothesis that's lacking in evidence the only reasonable hypothesis? Is the most reductionist explanation necessarily the most likely to be true? If no one knew what lightning was and I said; "lightning has no cause" would scientists be forced to accept this until proven wrong, because any other explanation would have to include speculative causes that cannot yet be proven?
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post #764 of 774 (permalink) Old 04-25-2014, 03:19 PM
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Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Originally Posted by emotion View Post
It is better to believe what evidence suggests than what would give life meaning. I'd rather be right than blissfully ignorant.

The first four statements are true for the most part (though the laws of nature aren't arbitrary, they are just the inherent nature of the universe) if nihilistic. But to claim there is no evidence for them is nonsense. Life as we know it exists by anything but coincidence- the forms best suited to life are those that still exist. Life in its original state may have been "coincidence" to the degree that everything is, but recent evidence shows wasn't all that unlikely over the course of billions of years. As for consciousness, well, I suppose it is merely a manifestation of the type of reasoning that made us best equipped for survival. That isn't the same as being accidental.

But these are all assertions very much backed by evidence. Unlike religion, which is based on faith alone and has unchanging dogma, an evidence-grounded system of beliefs allows one to live in accordance with their own values, and to adjust their beliefs to accommodate for an evolving world. Nihilism is a beautiful thing if you look at it correctly.
Oh, really?

What is the evidence that the universe is an accident that appeared out of nothing, for no reason and with no purpose?

What is the evidence that the laws of nature appeared out of nothing, for no reason and with no purpose?

What is the evidence that the universe allows for the emergence of life by coincidence, for no reason and with no purpose?

What is the evidence that the universe allows for the emergence of consciousness by coincidence, for no reason and without purpose?

What is consciousness?

Quote:
Life as we know it exists by anything but coincidence- the forms best suited to life are those that still exist. Life in its original state may have been "coincidence" to the degree that everything is, but recent evidence shows wasn't all that unlikely over the course of billions of years. As for consciousness, well, I suppose it is merely a manifestation of the type of reasoning that made us best equipped for survival. That isn't the same as being accidental.
Fundamental misunderstanding of the issue on display here.

The nature of the universe is conducive to the emergence of conscious lifeforms, at least on one planet. In that sense, the emergence of life might not be a coincidence and the evolution of life is not a coincidence. However, atheists believe it is indeed a coincidence, devoid of purpose that the universe is conducive to the emergence of conscious lifeforms. Thus, life is a coincidence according to the atheistic worldview.

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post #765 of 774 (permalink) Old 04-25-2014, 04:01 PM
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Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

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Originally Posted by Mjau! View Post
Atheists have a biased way of thinking about this matter. If a deist assumes a guiding intelligence behind the creation of the universe and its laws and holds a non-materialistic view of consciousness, they protest. "Can't prove a negative", "no evidence" etc. But atheists believe the accidental-universe-out-of-nothing-with-no-purpose must be considered true until proven wrong. Why is this so much more rational? Why must it be the default position? It is in fact a hypothesis that makes assumptions about the very nature and origins of consciousness and the universe. Assumptions that are not based in scientific evidence. So my question is; what makes one hypothesis that's lacking in evidence the only reasonable hypothesis? Is the most reductionist explanation necessarily the most likely to be true? If no one knew what lightning was and I said; "lightning has no cause" would scientists be forced to accept this until proven wrong, because any other explanation would have to include speculative causes that cannot yet be proven?
You don't know a lot ot atheists, I see.

I for one don't assume an accidental-universe-out-of-nothing. I assume nothing. Why should I? There is simply no point. Having a theory about how it all started is pointless to me since the odds of proving it are so infinitesimal. Better use your mental strength in areas where you're more likely to get a result. I can state with conviction that I believe every theory launched by humans is wrong, simply because I'm convinced the Universe is too complicated for us to be capable of understanding. Only logical position then is to have no theory at all. I thus regard those having a theory, any theory, as being mistaken. But it's an honest mistake. I know why it is being made. It is just man rationalizing things he can't understand because such things appear frightening. I don't mind there being things I don't know and will never get an answer to, but I know that places me in the minority.

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