Do You Believe In A "God"? - Page 30 - MensTennisForums.com
View Poll Results: Do You Believe In A "God"?
Yes, I'm a Theist (Believe in holy revelation via a "Holy Book") 58 19.14%
Yes, I'm a Deist (Believe in God based upon the existence of the Universe and evolved life) 41 13.53%
Perhaps, I'm Agnostic (As there is conflicting, or a lack of, evidence you just don't know) 77 25.41%
No, I'm an Atheist (science will eventually understand the origins of the Big Bang/Universe) 127 41.91%
Voters: 303. You may not vote on this poll

 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #436 of 774 (permalink) Old 10-18-2009, 10:17 PM
-LIFETIME MEMBER-
 
Har-Tru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Germany
Age: 31
Posts: 20,524
                     
Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by habibko View Post
yes religion and God drove to many wars and conflicts because of it's massive power and influence on people especially where ignorance is present, but that doesn't mean religion is evil as it is, it means people can use it in an evil way, it's the same with a knife for example, it can be used to kill someone as well as prepare your dinner, does that make a knife evil?

there is no religion that gives you the right to spill an innocent blood, but people will twist everything they have including religion to justify their actions, it has happened throughout history.



well the same can be said about any insane person, he doesn't believe he is doing something wrong, he is not a bad person, but his actions can still be wrong and harmful.

without daggers, spears and swords in the past, people wouldn't have killed each other, same with missiles and guns these days, it doesn't make them evil in essence, it means they can be used in an evil way.



in Islam belief in one true God is enough for ultimate salvation, but there are degrees to salvation and also you could spend years in hell for certain sins you committed before finally making it to Heaven.
Oh that's interesting (the last bit). One of these days I'll have to read the Quran...

About the first bits, you're right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
Har-Tru is offline  
post #437 of 774 (permalink) Old 10-18-2009, 10:19 PM
Registered User
 
Clydey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 35
Posts: 13,308
                     
Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by habibko View Post
well the same can be said about any insane person, he doesn't believe he is doing something wrong, he is not a bad person, but his actions can still be wrong and harmful.
They weren't insane. These were well-educated men with a sincere belief that they were doing God's work.

'Nous nous tournons vers l’Écosse pour trouver toutes nos idées sur la civilisation' - Voltaire
Clydey is offline  
post #438 of 774 (permalink) Old 10-18-2009, 10:19 PM
-LIFETIME MEMBER-
 
Har-Tru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Germany
Age: 31
Posts: 20,524
                     
Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
I told you, it's a matter of probabilities. Think of the size of the universe. The chances are that life has evolved somewhere else. Of course that's likely. It is infinitely more likely than the chance existence of a fat bloke in a red suit, who rides a sleigh and delivers gifts to everyone in the world on the evening of 24th December.

One is much more likely than the other. I'm at pains to think of how you could possibly deny that.
Come on, you know I know it's more likely that aliens exist than that Santa Claus does... that's why I put the example in the first place. That was never the question. The question was, both are beliefs and cannot be proven, therefore, from a purely logical standpoint, they're both the same. When everything is taken into account, then one is far more ridiculous than the other. Same with the concept of God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
Har-Tru is offline  
post #439 of 774 (permalink) Old 10-18-2009, 10:25 PM
Registered User
 
Clydey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 35
Posts: 13,308
                     
Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
Come on, you know I know it's more likely that aliens exist than that Santa Claus does... that's why I put the example in the first place. That was never the question. The question was, both are beliefs and cannot be proven, therefore, from a purely logical standpoint, they're both the same. When everything is taken into account, then one is far more ridiculous than the other. Same with the concept of God.
That's not a practical position to hold, though. That is precisely what I said about agnosticism earlier. It's impossible to prove that God does not exist. That does not mean it's even remotely likely that there is a God, though.

I mean, can you prove that I don't have a pet unicorn? Of course not. No one can. However, my friends and family operate under the assumption that I don't have a pet unicorn. It's common sense.

Anyway, I'll have to try and extricate myself from the discussion. It's almost 11.30pm and I haven't even started on my sociology shit yet.

'Nous nous tournons vers l’Écosse pour trouver toutes nos idées sur la civilisation' - Voltaire
Clydey is offline  
post #440 of 774 (permalink) Old 10-18-2009, 10:27 PM
Registered User
 
Jelena's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Age: 44
Posts: 86,336
                     
Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by habibko View Post
in Islam belief in one true God is enough for ultimate salvation, but there are degrees to salvation and also you could spend years in hell for certain sins you committed before finally making it to Heaven.
In protestant belief the belief in Jesus Christ as Son of God, that he died sinlessly for your own sins and was ressurected the third day is enough. Otherwise the one of the guys who was crucified with Jesus wouldn't have reached the paradise, which was what he was assured by Christ (Luke 23,43)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
Oh that's interesting (the last bit). One of these days I'll have to read the Quran...
I read the Quran and decided to stick with the Bible.

Vamos Nando! Come on Andy! A portuguese Vamos to André Sá e Marcelo Melo! Vamos Gastão!Auf geht's Dustin! Vamos ChristianLindell!Vamos David! Pojd Tomáš! Davai Dolgo!

Bolo Zenden, Bobo Gille, Zlatan
Jelena is offline  
post #441 of 774 (permalink) Old 10-18-2009, 10:28 PM
Registered User
 
Getta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 12,983
                     
Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
First statement is very optimistic...
the discussion raises critical questions about brainwashing in whichever brainwashing system you happen to have been born into.
Getta is offline  
post #442 of 774 (permalink) Old 10-18-2009, 10:29 PM
-PREMIUM MEMBER-
 
habibko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 31
Posts: 20,060
                     
Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
They weren't insane. These were well-educated men with a sincere belief that they were doing God's work.
it's just an analogy, I meant that people can still do harmful things without believing they are doing a bad thing, not only insane people but also people like those.

for me I consider those people to be insane as well, not your typical insanity, but some people can be extremely ignorant or delusional that they can commit acts according to twisted beliefs, be it racism, pure hatred, twisted form of religion, grandiose delusions etc.

it doesn't make what I believe as a Muslim or the Quran as it is an evil thing, you think you would have ONLY gotten 19 people out of 1.5 billion believers to do 9/11 if it really stemmed from our religion as it is?

is Christianity evil because it was the driving force behind the crusades?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Federer View Post
“The goal, when I took my break of six months, was doing this for the next couple years, not just for one tournament, I understand people who say, ‘Oh, this would be a perfect moment to go.’ But I feel like I’ve put in so much work, and I love it so much, and I still have so much in the tank.”
habibko is offline  
post #443 of 774 (permalink) Old 10-18-2009, 10:29 PM
-LIFETIME MEMBER-
 
Har-Tru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Germany
Age: 31
Posts: 20,524
                     
Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
That's not a practical position to hold, though. That is precisely what I said about agnosticism earlier. It's impossible to prove that God does not exist. That does not mean it's even remotely likely that there is a God, though.

I mean, can you prove that I don't have a pet unicorn? Of course not. No one can. However, my friends and family operate under the assumption that I don't have a pet unicorn. It's common sense.

Anyway, I'll have to try and extricate myself from the discussion. It's almost 11.30pm and I haven't even started on my sociology shit yet.
But what I mean is, the notion of God is, for most people at least, more plausible than the notion of Santa Claus or unicorns. The fact that it's not even remotely likely that it exists, or that it's common sense that it doesn't exist, is your position.

Go on, get cracking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
Har-Tru is offline  
post #444 of 774 (permalink) Old 10-18-2009, 10:30 PM
Registered User
 
Clydey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 35
Posts: 13,308
                     
Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Getta View Post
the discussion raises critical questions about brainwashing in whichever brainwashing system you happen to have been born into.
Absolutely spot on.

'Nous nous tournons vers l’Écosse pour trouver toutes nos idées sur la civilisation' - Voltaire
Clydey is offline  
post #445 of 774 (permalink) Old 10-18-2009, 10:32 PM
-LIFETIME MEMBER-
 
Har-Tru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Germany
Age: 31
Posts: 20,524
                     
Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jelena View Post
In protestant belief the belief in Jesus Christ as Son of God, that he died sinlessly for your own sins and was ressurected the third day is enough. Otherwise the one of the guys who was crucified with Jesus wouldn't have reached the paradise, which was what he was assured by Christ (Luke 23,43)

I read the Quran and decided to stick with the Bible.
Luke 23,43 isn't even the best weapon the sola fide defenders have... and its detractors have many too. I think sola fide is pure bullshit though, and no I don't consider myself a Catholic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
Har-Tru is offline  
post #446 of 774 (permalink) Old 10-18-2009, 10:37 PM
Registered User
 
Echoes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Age: 34
Posts: 1,902
                     
Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

It's too easy to state that Religion/beliefs is the cause of wars. That statement almost gives an excuse to those warlords. 9/11, couldn't care less. I'm not a Moslim. Moslims can defend Islam if they want.

Christianism is no religion of war. Do you forget that secularism is a Christian invention: "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and Give to God, what belongs to God." That's the distinction between Temporal and Spiritual Powers. Trying to convert Pagans and other non-Christian by force is simply a violation of that principle. You may talk about the Inquisition blabla. That would not change this.
Echoes is offline  
post #447 of 774 (permalink) Old 10-18-2009, 10:40 PM
-LIFETIME MEMBER-
 
Har-Tru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Germany
Age: 31
Posts: 20,524
                     
Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
It's too easy to state that Religion/beliefs is the cause of wars. That statement almost gives an excuse to those warlords. 9/11, couldn't care less. I'm not a Moslim. Moslims can defend Islam if they want.

Christianism is no religion of war. Do you forget that secularism is a Christian invention: "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and Give to God, what belongs to God." That's the distinction between Temporal and Spiritual Powers. Trying to convert Pagans and other non-Christian by force is simply a violation of that principle. You may talk about the Inquisition blabla. That would not change this.
That's an example of confusing religion and church, which I was talking about before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
Har-Tru is offline  
post #448 of 774 (permalink) Old 10-18-2009, 10:42 PM
Registered User
 
Echoes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Age: 34
Posts: 1,902
                     
Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

Absolutely.
Echoes is offline  
post #449 of 774 (permalink) Old 10-20-2009, 08:10 PM
Registered User
 
Jōris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 2,619
                     
Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
It doesn't seem plausible to me. Who created the creator? Who created the creator of the creator? The Universe always having existed is more plausible, in my opinion.
What I find confusing is that you're willing to ignore cause and effect (and consequently logic and reason) for the universe, but not for a creator. Wouldn't this make your believe that the universe always existed just as irrational as the believe in a deity?

Thank you for not reporting my post.
Jōris is offline  
post #450 of 774 (permalink) Old 10-21-2009, 09:16 PM
Registered User
 
Clydey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 35
Posts: 13,308
                     
Re: Do You Believe In A "God"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arend View Post
What I find confusing is that you're willing to ignore cause and effect (and consequently logic and reason) for the universe, but not for a creator. Wouldn't this make your believe that the universe always existed just as irrational as the believe in a deity?
The universe having always existed is more plausible than the notion of a divine entity, which has no evidence at all to support it. We know a universe exists. We live in it. We do not know that a deity exists. Not only do we not know whether there is a God, there is also nothing to suggest that there is one. The world operates exactly as it would if there was no God watching over us.

To put it simply, it's more logical to believe that something we know to exist has always been, as opposed to believing that something we do not know exists has always been. Also, we are expected to believe that God is some sort of supreme being. Every species on earth is the product of evolution. The universe isn't the product of billions of years of evolution. The universe was here before us. It's completely irrational to believe that there is some sort of divine species in the sky that is outside of evolution. It's more logical to believe that the universe, which we know was here before us, has always been.

'Nous nous tournons vers l’Écosse pour trouver toutes nos idées sur la civilisation' - Voltaire
Clydey is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the MensTennisForums.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome