The modern prototype ATP player is tall, mechanical & sadly one dimensional - MensTennisForums.com

 13Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-19-2016, 06:07 PM Thread Starter
-LIFETIME MEMBER-
 
ClutchOn&Win's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,834
                     
The modern prototype ATP player is tall, mechanical & sadly one dimensional

Alex Zverev - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Nick Kyrigos - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Thanasi Kokkinakis - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Jiri Vesley - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Taylor Fritz - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Andrey Rublev - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves less than okay.
Andrey Kuznetzov - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Denis Shapovalov - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Federico Del Bonis - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Marin Cilic - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Milos Raonic - Tall, big serve, big groundies, now starting to move okay.

This is where tennis is heading & has already headed. I despise Nadal's game but the truth of the matter is, what Uncle Toni said was absolutely spot-on-the-money.

Strings became as advanced as they are quite some-time ago now, but the point is coaches have now had a decade to mould & manufacture players from a toddler age into making the most of them. If you are tall with long levers (Arms & legs) you can generate such easy power using the strings of today, that it's literally like we have different weight divisions competing against each other in boxing. Imagine sticking Amir Khan in a ring with Anthony Joshua? And no smaller guys cannot make up for it with movement, unless it's clay.

The modern day player is tall & a mechanical ball-striker with little fluidity & guile in their game.

Small, nimble & quick guys have had to resort to playing up on the baseline like Ferrer & Nishikori & use their quick footwork to get themselves in position to take the ball early & aggressively everytime. Which is near impossible to do every time and consistently, because you need immaculate timing to pull it off. Imagine needing that timing on pressured points & moments?

I've studied the tour enough by now & know full well this is where we are. These smaller guys have no chance, not only because they can't generate anywhere near the power, but they have to always play up near the baseline & if they're being attacked, take balls on the half volley. They don't have the reach to drop behind, like Murray and Djokovic, who stand above 6 feet & just one offs and won't be replicated again. Alex Zverev, Andrey Kuznetzov, Shapolova etc.

Guys like Lucas Pouille are very rare unfortunately. All court guys that do everything well & possess that spark of x factor also. The days of Tommy Haas & yes, Roger Federer are done. It's not too defensive. The courts being slow actually helps the aggressive players, but that leads into a ball-bashing fest. Many are blinded by the fact we are living in a Djokovic accompanied by Murray era.
RNW likes this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YodaKnowsBest View Post
Who is Victor Estrella
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClutchOnandWin View Post
Mainstream fans that only talk about Djokovic/Federer/Nadal should leave Muppet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YodaKnowsBest View Post
I recently discussed Mark Philippoussis. I can write his entire name now without using copy and paste.
^ This my bloody wigga right here, right here! Ahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slade View Post
I know who he is, but once again with you people - apples and oranges.

With Federer it's a sort of spiritual unity. He brought us here and in particular; to this forum. Without him, we wouldn't be posting at this time on this day.
Look at this sheet. Slade needs a girlfriend.

https://twitter.com/MidCourtCrisis - Follow me on twitter.

Last edited by ClutchOn&Win; 07-19-2016 at 06:18 PM.
ClutchOn&Win is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-19-2016, 06:56 PM
Registered User
 
Moonball Pusher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,696
                     
Re: The modern prototype ATP player is tall, mechanical & sadly one dimensional

We need Sampras back to save tennis.

Objective Tennis Fan

Federer - Isner - Sock - Fritz - Big Uncle Sam Querrey - GOATbis
Tennis embarrassments: Novack - Nadal - Ferrer - Fognini - Berdych - Raonic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed of Light View Post
Thank You Rafa.... Thank You For Everything, I Owe My Entire Life To You Rafa, You Are My God You Are My God You Are My God, My Life Is Blessed Now That You Inhibit This Earth, Thanks Rafa
Moonball Pusher is offline  
post #3 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-19-2016, 07:08 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,975
                     
Re: The modern prototype ATP player is tall, mechanical & sadly one dimensional

Hopefully, there will be some new guys that break this mold.

A guy like Coric will be able to compete with these guys because he moves very well.

Nishikori can still school these type guys for a few more years.

Tsonga has everything these guys have plus very good movement.

But I agree, if there are no upcoming Ferrer, Nishioki or Tsonga types coming up, it will be boring if everyone at the top of the game plays the same way and has basically the same attributes.
GiFeRiGri likes this.
SERVivor is offline  
post #4 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-19-2016, 07:12 PM
Registered User
 
Logos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 810
                     
Re: The modern prototype ATP player is tall, mechanical & sadly one dimensional

Welcome back

Novak has mastered all or almost all elements of the game. He is the best in several categories and top 10 in almost all others. He can use any counter-measure (and on a very high level) against the opponent's strong points and is far more skilled in other game elements. If someone is a poor returner, Novak will utilize his serve. If someone relies too much on serve, Novak will demolish him with strong returns. In rallies against opponents who have huge stamina and good defence, he aims for winners. In rallies against ballbashers and redliners, he turns into a brick wall and cannot be punched back. And the beauty of all? He wins all the time.

Simply the greatest master of this game.
Logos is offline  
post #5 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-19-2016, 07:40 PM
Registered User
 
WhiskeyEE's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 1,071
                     
Re: The modern prototype ATP player is tall, mechanical & sadly one dimensional

The biggest hitters off the ground right now - Stan and Thiem, aren't that tall. I can't see that shorter players are underpowered from the baseline.

What height helps with so much is serve, moreso because it affects the angle of the serve than leverage. And, in today's game, it's better to be tall with a great serve and mediocre movement than short with good movement.

This is just something that is inherent to the rules of the sport like basketball. If the hoop wasn't 10 feet in the air, NBA players would be as tall as soccer players. And, if tennis players served underhanded like in badminton, the average height in tennis would reflect the average height in that sport.

I would say that the slowing of the courts may be more responsible for this increasing height trend than anything, since it enables poor movement. To be a S&V player back in the day still required a ton of athleticism like Sampras and Tsonga have. You couldn't just be a tall unathletic wide hip'd dude like Raonic or skinny fat guy like Kyrgios.
MuzzahLovah likes this.

Nadal has lost 15 straight sets and 11 of his last 12 matches against Djokovic.

Last edited by WhiskeyEE; 07-19-2016 at 07:45 PM.
WhiskeyEE is offline  
post #6 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-19-2016, 07:43 PM
Registered User
 
Claybot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,381
                     
Re: The modern prototype ATP player is tall, mechanical & sadly one dimensional

What's Mugbonis doing in that list?
zjtennis and acacacacademy like this.

No more slams for you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Kyrgios
Did Fed or Nole have a 2000CP Gyarados? Didn't think so.
Claybot is online now  
post #7 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-19-2016, 07:57 PM Thread Starter
-LIFETIME MEMBER-
 
ClutchOn&Win's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,834
                     
Re: The modern prototype ATP player is tall, mechanical & sadly one dimensional

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeyEE View Post
The biggest hitters off the ground right now - Stan and Thiem, aren't that tall. I can't see that shorter players are underpowered from the baseline.

What height helps with so much is serve, moreso because it affects the angle of the serve than leverage. And, in today's game, it's better to be tall with a great serve and mediocre movement than short with good movement.

This is just something that is inherent to the rules of the sport like basketball. If the hoop wasn't 10 feet in the air, NBA players would be as tall as soccer players. And, if tennis players served underhanded like in badminton, the average height in tennis would reflect the average height in that sport.

I would say that the slowing of the courts may be more responsible for this increasing height trend than anything, since it enables poor movement. To be a S&V player back in the day still required a ton of athleticism like Sampras and Tsonga have. You couldn't just be a tall unathletic wide hip'd dude like Raonic or skinny fat guy like Kyrgios.
You have only named two players here. Thiem & Wawrinka & yes, these guys have a lot of topspin to add in with their power, which requires racquet head control, but aside from these two & Verdasco?

Height doesn't only help with the serve. The longer your arms & legs are the easier it is for you to generate power, because you can use your legs as a 'spring-board' and your arms can gear up further. It's the extension of the arm.

'Torque is greater when the size of the moment arm (the distance from the muscle to the joint) is larger. This works with the extension of the arm in the serve. The more the arm is extended, the greater the length of the moment arm and the lever, which in turn puts more acceleration on the racquet head and more power on the ball (see diagram below).


Reference - http://biomechanicstennis-tombuck.we...-momentum.html

^^^^I'll find other supporting articles which support that taller players find it easier to generate power because their arms & legs are longer, but this is a start...




So if you put a guy 6'5 & a guy 5'11 side-by-side, both having the same quality of technique, the 6'5 guy will be able to generate more power. In Alex Zverev's case, because he is also a good athlete, it's double the pleasure, because now he can move well enough to prepare early for shots & hit them hard. So the edge the 5'11 guy has on the 6'5 guy, from being able to move better, has suddenly been eradicated.

A good tall player will always beat an equally good small player, in modern tennis. Guys like Goffin and Nishikori have to play up along the baseline, unless they are on clay & take the ball early & aggress & when they are on the backfoot & in a defensive position, counter-punch. Especially Goffin, who can't generate power for shit.

Some make the argument that as a small player, your technique will be more compact & reliable/efficient, but if we look at Zverev & Fritz's backhands, they're also compact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YodaKnowsBest View Post
Who is Victor Estrella
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClutchOnandWin View Post
Mainstream fans that only talk about Djokovic/Federer/Nadal should leave Muppet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YodaKnowsBest View Post
I recently discussed Mark Philippoussis. I can write his entire name now without using copy and paste.
^ This my bloody wigga right here, right here! Ahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slade View Post
I know who he is, but once again with you people - apples and oranges.

With Federer it's a sort of spiritual unity. He brought us here and in particular; to this forum. Without him, we wouldn't be posting at this time on this day.
Look at this sheet. Slade needs a girlfriend.

https://twitter.com/MidCourtCrisis - Follow me on twitter.

Last edited by ClutchOn&Win; 07-19-2016 at 08:04 PM.
ClutchOn&Win is offline  
post #8 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-19-2016, 08:19 PM
Registered User
 
Ragnar Lothbrok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Eta Carinae
Posts: 14,915
                     
Re: The modern prototype ATP player is tall, mechanical & sadly one dimensional

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClutchOn&Win View Post
Alex Zverev - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Nick Kyrigos - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Thanasi Kokkinakis - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Jiri Vesley - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Taylor Fritz - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Andrey Rublev - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves less than okay.
Andrey Kuznetzov - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Denis Shapovalov - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Federico Del Bonis - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Marin Cilic - Tall, big serve, big groundies, moves okay.
Milos Raonic - Tall, big serve, big groundies, now starting to move okay.
I'd see the ones bolded are similar players and fit your description.

Cilic actually is a great mover for his size, but I wouldn't say his groundies are that big. Neither Raonic's groundies are big, he has very low power actually for someone with his body type.

Kyrgios is an all courter.

Delbonis is nowhere near a modern prototype ATP player, according to your definition. He's actually an awful mover and his groundies and serve aren't big, he just has the advantage of being a lefty and kinda unorthodox technique. Pretty much the same as Vesely, but the czech serves harder.

I think Kuznetsov and Shapovalov have barely 6 foot, while Zverev has almost 6'7, so your height range for tall players looks a bit too large.
Ragnar Lothbrok is offline  
post #9 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-19-2016, 08:39 PM Thread Starter
-LIFETIME MEMBER-
 
ClutchOn&Win's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,834
                     
Re: The modern prototype ATP player is tall, mechanical & sadly one dimensional

I think a lot of people are seeking out for technical little nuances which can imply my theory is wrong.

Of course not every single one of those players I mentioned are going to be identical to the description and there are going to be some who have additional minor qualities to their game. The big picture point is however, the fundamental make-up of their game is to serve big and hit big forehands or backhands. Kyrgios for example may have tricks up his sleeve & possess great touch etc and what not, but this is not what wins him matches. It's what wins you most of your points. What is the reason these guys are playing on the professional tour? Is Kyrgios on tour because he has all court skills? No. He's there primarily because of his serve & his forehand. Raonic has a big forehand.

If you've watched/seen Del Bonis play on the clay, you'll know he's a very good mover for someone as tall as he is. You should watch him more. He slides into drop-shots and plays all sorts of cat and mouse games with players in the forecourt. Ask any guy that has the patience to watch clay court tennis on the 250 ATP or challenger tour. He has the obvious advantage of being lefty, yes, but also power to add to that. Vesley has even more power than Del Bonis & both play with shape & control on their shots, but they have long arms and legs which allows them to generate easier power than smaller guys, like Diego Schwartzman and Ricardo Berankis etc.

Zverev is 6'5, not 6'7. lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YodaKnowsBest View Post
Who is Victor Estrella
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClutchOnandWin View Post
Mainstream fans that only talk about Djokovic/Federer/Nadal should leave Muppet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YodaKnowsBest View Post
I recently discussed Mark Philippoussis. I can write his entire name now without using copy and paste.
^ This my bloody wigga right here, right here! Ahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slade View Post
I know who he is, but once again with you people - apples and oranges.

With Federer it's a sort of spiritual unity. He brought us here and in particular; to this forum. Without him, we wouldn't be posting at this time on this day.
Look at this sheet. Slade needs a girlfriend.

https://twitter.com/MidCourtCrisis - Follow me on twitter.
ClutchOn&Win is offline  
post #10 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-19-2016, 09:01 PM
Registered User
 
Han Solo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Age: 39
Posts: 2,349
                     
Re: The modern prototype ATP player is tall, mechanical & sadly one dimensional

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeyEE View Post
The biggest hitters off the ground right now - Stan and Thiem, aren't that tall. I can't see that shorter players are underpowered from the baseline.

What height helps with so much is serve, moreso because it affects the angle of the serve than leverage. And, in today's game, it's better to be tall with a great serve and mediocre movement than short with good movement.

This is just something that is inherent to the rules of the sport like basketball. If the hoop wasn't 10 feet in the air, NBA players would be as tall as soccer players. And, if tennis players served underhanded like in badminton, the average height in tennis would reflect the average height in that sport.

I would say that the slowing of the courts may be more responsible for this increasing height trend than anything, since it enables poor movement. To be a S&V player back in the day still required a ton of athleticism like Sampras and Tsonga have. You couldn't just be a tall unathletic wide hip'd dude like Raonic or skinny fat guy like Kyrgios.
Meet 1996 Wimbledon winner, Richard Krajicek.

However, he could advise players like Raonic and Krygios on how to improve their movement:

Richard Krajicek: Karate helped me win Wimbledon - VAVEL.com
Han Solo is offline  
post #11 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-19-2016, 09:28 PM Thread Starter
-LIFETIME MEMBER-
 
ClutchOn&Win's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,834
                     
Re: The modern prototype ATP player is tall, mechanical & sadly one dimensional

Guys, I'm not talking about just movement. This isn't just about movement. This is about the types of players that are climbing to the top of the game. The type of physical stature you need.

If you're tall, with a big serve & have one big groundstroke with okay movement, you are good. Back in the day, tall guys couldn't move too well, but that's all changed. Tall guys are now great athletes and we're seeing that with Alexander Zverev. It's primarily why Zverev has so much more potential than the rest, he has those big weapons from being tall, but also good movement. Of course he will always struggle with low balls, but would you rather be him than Nishikori, of course? Because you can close matches out. You aren't going to choke because you have no serve when in a tiebreak with Djokovic in the Rome Semi Finals.

The taller and bigger your serve is, the more relaxed you are when playing points from the baseline, both in return and on serve, because you know, YOU KNOW, that if shit doesn't pan out for you in the rally, so what? Who really cares? Because there is always the opportunity to bang an ace or a big serve to give you the easy edge in the rally, the following point.

The advantage big servers with big weapons have is not only the fact they have big serves and big weapons, it's mental! They are comfortable under pressure. Their game allows them to feel comfortable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YodaKnowsBest View Post
Who is Victor Estrella
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClutchOnandWin View Post
Mainstream fans that only talk about Djokovic/Federer/Nadal should leave Muppet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YodaKnowsBest View Post
I recently discussed Mark Philippoussis. I can write his entire name now without using copy and paste.
^ This my bloody wigga right here, right here! Ahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slade View Post
I know who he is, but once again with you people - apples and oranges.

With Federer it's a sort of spiritual unity. He brought us here and in particular; to this forum. Without him, we wouldn't be posting at this time on this day.
Look at this sheet. Slade needs a girlfriend.

https://twitter.com/MidCourtCrisis - Follow me on twitter.
ClutchOn&Win is offline  
post #12 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-19-2016, 09:30 PM
Registered User
 
monfed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: weak era
Age: 30
Posts: 6,287
                     
Re: The modern prototype ATP player is tall, mechanical & sadly one dimensional

The magic is gone from tennis. It's sad, now we just have Nishikori who remotely represents all court tennis.

Member of the "Federer to win everything in 2016 2017" club.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monfed View Post
If Paes made the RG final, he would legit beat DJ in straights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tutsi Frutsi View Post
Paes looks like he couldn't beat McDonalds and you're saying he would school a guy who refused to eat pizza to take his game to the next level


https://twitter.com/monfed74
monfed is offline  
post #13 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-19-2016, 09:41 PM
Registered User
 
BodyServe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Age: 28
Posts: 4,063
                     
Re: The modern prototype ATP player is tall, mechanical & sadly one dimensional

Kokkinakis and Vesely don't have big groundies.
BodyServe is online now  
post #14 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-19-2016, 09:44 PM Thread Starter
-LIFETIME MEMBER-
 
ClutchOn&Win's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,834
                     
Re: The modern prototype ATP player is tall, mechanical & sadly one dimensional

Lol^

Quote:
Originally Posted by YodaKnowsBest View Post
Who is Victor Estrella
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClutchOnandWin View Post
Mainstream fans that only talk about Djokovic/Federer/Nadal should leave Muppet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YodaKnowsBest View Post
I recently discussed Mark Philippoussis. I can write his entire name now without using copy and paste.
^ This my bloody wigga right here, right here! Ahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slade View Post
I know who he is, but once again with you people - apples and oranges.

With Federer it's a sort of spiritual unity. He brought us here and in particular; to this forum. Without him, we wouldn't be posting at this time on this day.
Look at this sheet. Slade needs a girlfriend.

https://twitter.com/MidCourtCrisis - Follow me on twitter.
ClutchOn&Win is offline  
post #15 of 71 (permalink) Old 07-19-2016, 09:46 PM
Registered User
 
TigerTim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: London (sadly)
Posts: 14,459
                     
Re: The modern prototype ATP player is tall, mechanical & sadly one dimensional

The modern MTF troll is much the same these days, one dimensional

(Not suggesting Clutch is, but others in here are sadly weak compared to their forbearers)

On Murray
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamvol View Post
He probably just hangs about in 2nd place protecting himself with 3 bananas whilst waiting for the person in the lead to get blue shelled.
1. Murray wins Wimbledon 2016 after Djokovic is blue shelled by Querrey. Thanks Querrey!

2. Murray wins Olympic Gold for the second time after Djokovic is blue shelled by Del Potro. Thanks Del Potro!

3. Murray wins US Open 2016 after Djokovic is blue shelled by [pending]. Thanks [pending]!

TigerTim is online now  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the MensTennisForums.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome