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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-04-2015, 10:40 AM Thread Starter
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The "Big 2" post 2014 Roland Garros



Since 2014 Roland Garros, #1 Novak Djokovic and #2 Roger Federer separated themselves from the field in terms of consistent top results. Some may argue that more recently, Novak Djokovic is the big 1 and has separated himself from the field, but this thread is not about that, so it is not up for discussion.

The chart above is the union of all the tournaments each of these players played in the period. A for Absences are the equivalent of did not play. O is for Other results than the getting to business end of the tournament (semifinals or better).

Their results since RG 2014 have been amazing for different reasons, and somewhat similar and complimentary. Novak holds the class edge, winning more of the biggest tournaments, but Roger perhaps surprisingly, has had more titles + runner-ups, and generally did better in the lesser tournaments. With the notable exception of Wimbledon, Federer generally did better in faster conditions, Djokovic in the slower, which is well known and accepted by most pundits.

Nobody else is close to these players in consistency and results in the stated period. Check it if you want.

Curiously, Federer stated before this year started that one of his goals for 2015 was to do better in finals than he did last year, where he made 11 finals (the most since 2007's 12: 8-4), but won only 50%, winning 5, losing 5, and did not play 1 (WTF). This year so far, he has made 4 finals and won 3. So far, he is meeting his goal for 2015. And in this stated time span, he is remarkably 8 and 4 in finals (inc. DC).

Djokovic made 8 finals last year, winning 7. This year, he has so far continued or even increased that pace and made 5 finals, winning 4. In the stated time period, he is 8 and 1 in finals.

Can we blame this period of dominance on anyone? Did these two take advantage of below par/injured-absent players like Nadal, Murray, Del Potro?

Do you see this trend continuing for the rest of 2015, or do you expect someone to invade their space? If so, who? Murray, Nishikori, Nadal? Will any of the younger guys step it up? Or will they continue to hit the wall?

Do you think Federer, now 3/4th of the way into his 34th year, will finally fall as the renowned prophet Everko prophesied, or perhaps even the mighty Djokovic will cool off?

Who knows, eh? In the meantime, enjoy the ride, and we'll watch and find out.

Respectfully,
masterclass

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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-04-2015, 11:01 AM
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Re: The "Big 2" post 2014 Roland Garros

Murray was irrelevant all year in 2014, same for Nadal post RG. Federer has an inflated ranking as a result. Murray should take the number 2 spot somewhere in the US masters swing.
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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-04-2015, 11:55 AM
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Re: The "Big 2" post 2014 Roland Garros

obviously 2015 has been all Djokovic

but if we look back on the last 12 months going into 2014, definitely Djokovic and Fed Express have been the tent poles of the sport. will be interesting how this year develops in terms of that, with Nadal and Murray mostly MIA for 2014 and for part of this 2015 (obviously minus Australia final for Andy)

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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-04-2015, 01:49 PM
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Re: The "Big 2" post 2014 Roland Garros

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Originally Posted by M.Bison View Post
Murray was irrelevant all year in 2014, same for Nadal post RG. Federer has an inflated ranking as a result. Murray should take the number 2 spot somewhere in the US masters swing.
Nice joke Bison.

When was the last time Push-Ray accumulated 9200 points at the end of the year? I remember peak Push-Ray was sitting on 8000 and ~6600 points at the end 2012, 13 resp. What makes you to conclude that Push-Ray's supposed irrelevancy in 2014 inflated GOAT's ranking?

He has been always irrelevant and will be with only exception of 2013 when Roger had back troubles.

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About Murray's grass court game:
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Originally Posted by Sapeod View Post
Against JesusFed anyone would look fairly average. Djokovic would have been destroyed even worse had he (Djokovic) faced Roger in that semi-final.
And no, he (Murray) is not overrated. He's technically a better grass player than Djokovic is.
Those three titles the Serb give him statistics on the surface than he does, considering he plays the same damn way he does on clay and still wins the title. Slow as fuck grass does that. It's the same for Nadal during 2006-11.
Talking about Fed - Delpo Olympic semis:
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Roger had that immense third set but it was still a 3-set match. He even said he was fine but still got dismantled.
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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-04-2015, 01:53 PM
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Re: The "Big 2" post 2014 Roland Garros

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Originally Posted by M.Bison View Post
Murray was irrelevant all year in 2014, same for Nadal post RG. Federer has an inflated ranking as a result. Murray should take the number 2 spot somewhere in the US masters swing.
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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-04-2015, 01:53 PM
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Re: The "Big 2" post 2014 Roland Garros

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Originally Posted by masterclass View Post


Since 2014 Roland Garros, #1 Novak Djokovic and #2 Roger Federer separated themselves from the field in terms of consistent top results. Some may argue that more recently, Novak Djokovic is the big 1 and has separated himself from the field, but this thread is not about that, so it is not up for discussion.

The chart above is the union of all the tournaments each of these players played in the period. A for Absences are the equivalent of did not play. O is for Other results than the getting to business end of the tournament (semifinals or better).

Their results since RG 2014 have been amazing for different reasons, and somewhat similar and complimentary. Novak holds the class edge, winning more of the biggest tournaments, but Roger perhaps surprisingly, has had more titles + runner-ups, and generally did better in the lesser tournaments. With the notable exception of Wimbledon, Federer generally did better in faster conditions, Djokovic in the slower, which is well known and accepted by most pundits.

Nobody else is close to these players in consistency and results in the stated period. Check it if you want.

Curiously, Federer stated before this year started that one of his goals for 2015 was to do better in finals than he did last year, where he made 11 finals (the most since 2007's 12: 8-4), but won only 50%, winning 5, losing 5, and did not play 1 (WTF). This year so far, he has made 4 finals and won 3. So far, he is meeting his goal for 2015. And in this stated time span, he is remarkably 8 and 4 in finals (inc. DC).

Djokovic made 8 finals last year, winning 7. This year, he has so far continued or even increased that pace and made 5 finals, winning 4. In the stated time period, he is 8 and 1 in finals.

Can we blame this period of dominance on anyone? Did these two take advantage of below par/injured-absent players like Nadal, Murray, Del Potro?

Do you see this trend continuing for the rest of 2015, or do you expect someone to invade their space? If so, who? Murray, Nishikori, Nadal? Will any of the younger guys step it up? Or will they continue to hit the wall?

Do you think Federer, now 3/4th of the way into his 34th year, will finally fall as the renowned prophet Everko prophesied, or perhaps even the mighty Djokovic will cool off?

Who knows, eh? In the meantime, enjoy the ride, and we'll watch and find out.

Respectfully,
masterclass
It is up for discussion. The OP is overrating Federer and underrating Djokovic. Post 2014 there is no "big 2". There is only BIG 1 and that is Djokovic INDEED.

Also no one is taking his place for a long time. Enjoy the ride indeed.

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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-04-2015, 05:13 PM
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Re: The "Big 2" post 2014 Roland Garros

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Originally Posted by chico View Post
It is up for discussion. The OP is overrating Federer and underrating Djokovic. Post 2014 there is no "big 2". There is only BIG 1 and that is Djokovic INDEED.

Also no one is taking his place for a long time. Enjoy the ride indeed.
Djokovic obviously won the bigger titles despite making it to less finals. Their H2H matchup was rather even though. Djokovic won 6 tournaments in which Federer also partecipated, beating him twice. Federer did the same in 3 tournaments he won, also beating Djokovic in two of them.

Some other facts:
-At least one of them made the finals in every tournament where both entered with the only exception of the USO (both SF).
-They won 16/19 where at least one of them entered and 9/11 where both of them entered

They were definitely a Big2 over the last 11 months yes but Federer will have to step up big time in order to contrast Djokovic's run over the last 5 months. There is still more than 2/3 of 2015 to play and we shall see if this is truly turning into a single player dominance.
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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-04-2015, 05:14 PM
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Re: The "Big 2" post 2014 Roland Garros

Murray doesn't deserve to surpass Federer, being so unimpressive against top players.
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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-04-2015, 05:57 PM
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Re: The "Big 2" post 2014 Roland Garros

Quote:
Originally Posted by M.Bison View Post
Murray was irrelevant all year in 2014, same for Nadal post RG. Federer has an inflated ranking as a result. Murray should take the number 2 spot somewhere in the US masters swing.
Wake me up when Murray actually manages to beat Djokovic.
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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-04-2015, 06:03 PM
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Re: The "Big 2" post 2014 Roland Garros

Federer should keep it. In this weak era even declined old Fed shouldn't have much problem to keep the 2nd spot, unless he falls in a slump similar to 2013.

Nadal has won only 1 match against top10 in nearly a year. Berdych is consistent, but not good enough. Murray hasn't won a mandatory event for nearly 2 years and is on 12 matches losing streak against Big 3. Young guns are either too young (Kyrgios, Coric) or not talented enough (Dimitrov, Raonic).
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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-04-2015, 06:10 PM
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Re: The "Big 2" post 2014 Roland Garros

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Originally Posted by Geolith View Post
Djokovic obviously won the bigger titles despite making it to less finals. Their H2H matchup was rather even though. Djokovic won 6 tournaments in which Federer also partecipated, beating him twice. Federer did the same in 3 tournaments he won, also beating Djokovic in two of them.
Federer also played in more tournaments than Djokovic. Djokovic made fewer finals, but only lost one of them, where as Fed lost 4.
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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-04-2015, 07:00 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The "Big 2" post 2014 Roland Garros

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Originally Posted by chico View Post
It is up for discussion. The OP is overrating Federer and underrating Djokovic. Post 2014 there is no "big 2". There is only BIG 1 and that is Djokovic INDEED.

Also no one is taking his place for a long time. Enjoy the ride indeed.
Look boy, it is not up for discussion, as I mentioned in the OP. I don't even care if you or others are a permanently banned poster using a different account or not.

As thread starter I have some responsibility of trying to keep the thread on topic. There is no overrating or underrating. It is what it is. The facts are there before everyone in living color in 3 different ways - results grid, class totals, overall totals. I give Djokovic proper credit in my following statements, and the same with Federer.

Similarly, this goes for all of the inane, ridiculous vulture accusation talk by some others in the thread. Doha and Brisbane are warm up tourneys for the Australian Open. Halle is a warmup grass tourney for Wimbledon. Istanbul was an inaugural tournament that needed a big time player to help promote the event and attract the crowds. Federer decided to take on the responsibility and appeared to carry it off well. If it is not known by some, four ATP 500 tourneys are required for commitment players, one of them has to be after the US Open.

I would hope you and others can find an avenue of discussion where you'll be able to express your enthusiasm for your player(s) without trying to derail the thread. Here is a hint: the future is not set.

Anymore of these types of disruptions, and I'll ask the mods/admins to move this to the advanced dicussion sub-forum where the rules are more strict.

Thank you,
masterclass
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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-04-2015, 07:53 PM
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Re: The "Big 2" post 2014 Roland Garros

Sadly masterclass your discussion seems to have dissolved into a tard-war.

To answer one your questions...specifically this one:

Quote:
Can we blame this period of dominance on anyone? Did these two take advantage of below par/injured-absent players like Nadal, Murray, Del Potro?
Murray recovering from back surgery and Nadal being MIA certainly helped. You can see already that Murray is starting regain his form, in 6 tourneys so far this year he has reached the semi or better in 4 of them. 1 Win, 2 Finals, and a Semi, and the other two are QFs.

Federer has 4 finals (3 wins and a loss), but two early exits.

Berdych has picked up a lot of the slack though, reaching semis or better in all but one tournment, however with 0 outright wins.

But again as you said Djokovic has become the 'Big 1' in 6 events he's been in the final 5 times losing only once (to Fed.) and lost in the QFs in the other one.

Nadal is not quite there yet though (1 win and 2 semis)

Nishikori is starting to emerge (2 Wins, a final and a semi), and Raonic is being his usual consistent self with the bar slowly rising from consistent QF, to SF (one final and 2 semis).

Who knows what the rest of the year will bring, but right now Djokovic is leading the pack with everyone else a good distance away.

Again this is just for 2015 and not 'since RG'

In the Race right now Djokovic has more than twice the points of Murray in #2. If you half Murray's points you get #2-9 in that range with Raonic having just more than half Murray's points. If Djokovic is going to keep up what he's doing it's looking like a dogfight for the rest of the spots below him.
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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-04-2015, 08:01 PM
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Re: The "Big 2" post 2014 Roland Garros

Big 2 is Nadal and Djokovic, the guys that win the slams in the last years. I talk about more than 1.
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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-04-2015, 08:14 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The "Big 2" post 2014 Roland Garros

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Originally Posted by Loosie View Post
Sadly masterclass your discussion seems to have dissolved into a tard-war.

To answer one your questions...specifically this one:



Murray recovering from back surgery and Nadal being MIA certainly helped. You can see already that Murray is starting regain his form, in 6 tourneys so far this year he has reached the semi or better in 4 of them. 1 Win, 2 Finals, and a Semi, and the other two are QFs.

Federer has 4 finals (3 wins and a loss), but two early exits.

Berdych has picked up a lot of the slack though, reaching semis or better in all but one tournment, however with 0 outright wins.

But again as you said Djokovic has become the 'Big 1' in 6 events he's been in the final 5 times losing only once (to Fed.) and lost in the QFs in the other one.

Nadal is not quite there yet though (1 win and 2 semis)

Nishikori is starting to emerge (2 Wins, a final and a semi), and Raonic is being his usual consistent self with the bar slowly rising from consistent QF, to SF (one final and 2 semis).

Who knows what the rest of the year will bring, but right now Djokovic is leading the pack with everyone else a good distance away.

Again this is just for 2015 and not 'since RG'

In the Race right now Djokovic has more than twice the points of Murray in #2. If you half Murray's points you get #2-9 in that range with Raonic having just more than half Murray's points. If Djokovic is going to keep up what he's doing it's looking like a dogfight for the rest of the spots below him.
This is more like it, thanks Loosie. The analysis was for the period since RG 2014, but your or anyone's projection can certainly be based on whatever you choose.

I personally think Federer is going to have to win 1 major this year to stay at #2 or better. Not that he absolutely has to, but it would sure help him, especially if wants a chance at #1. Otherwise, he'll be under a lot of pressure to defend his two masters and other good results of last year.

Djokovic, like anyone else, can't afford a collapse, but that's looking doubtful at the moment. He's well ahead at the moment, but if he slips up at RG and/or Wimbledon, he may not be. I'm not sure if another major win will guarantee him a #1 spot for the year, but if he performs pretty well the rest of the year, then it should.

I agree with most of what you mentioned, but I also don't think we can underestimate the absence of poor Juan Martin Del Potro. He's a player that can beat or severely push any of the top players, enough to prevent them from winning a big title. It's a real shame he's been injured in what should be his peak years.

And of course we have the huge inconsistency of the other 1 time slam winners. Will that continue? Who knows? Personally, based on what I've seen from similar players over a long amount of years (longer than I care to mention ), I'm not sure Stanimal will have the big motivation anymore, after winning a slam and Davis Cup. Those had to be his biggest dreams, and he fulfilled them. But again, who knows, maybe something or someone will drive him to that previous level? I guess the same may go for Cilic even to a greater extent. We'll see...

Respectfully,
masterclass

Last edited by masterclass; 05-04-2015 at 08:18 PM.
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