In-depth analysis of matchups/matchup issues between ATP players - Page 9 - MensTennisForums.com
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #121 of 318 (permalink) Old 02-01-2013, 04:11 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Mark Lenders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 16,605
                     
Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
At the AO match Murray was actually out-hitting and overpowering Federer off the ground for long periods of the match. Of course, Andy's offensive ground game has improved immensely, but the Federer of old wouldn't be getting bullied by him, which is a sign of his decline really.
Yup, that match had very different dynamics from the usual in their matches. But still, it highlighted what an 'annoying' opponent Murray is for Federer when the latter is not fully sharp. Murray did really well to attack Fed's second serves and exploit his slow movement (especially to the forehand side) on the day and could even have taken it in 3 sets had he been more clutch.

MTF games titles:

Suicide Tennis (5): Wimbledon 2014, World Tour Finals 2015, Madrid 2015, Kuala Lumpur 2014 and Metz 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 WTF, 1 Masters 1000, 2 ATP 250; 2 finals lost

Fill-in-the-Draw (3): US Open 2014, Rotterdam 2013 and Geneva 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 ATP 500 and 1 ATP 250

Tennis Tipping (3): Veneza and Todi 2014 (with vn01), Knoxville 2015 (with Redkop) - 3 challengers
Mark Lenders is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #122 of 318 (permalink) Old 02-01-2013, 04:21 AM
Registered User
 
uxyzapenje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: At home.
Posts: 5,104
                     
Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

If Monfils wasn't injured it would be Monfils-Simon. That's the worst match-up ever. Not for Simon. And not for Monfils. But for us who dare watching it. The spectators would have some serious 'match-up issues' after every match they play.

Djokovic | Tipsarevic | Querrey
uxyzapenje is offline  
post #123 of 318 (permalink) Old 02-01-2013, 04:59 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Mark Lenders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 16,605
                     
Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

Quote:
Originally Posted by uxyzapenje View Post
If Monfils wasn't injured it would be Monfils-Simon. That's the worst match-up ever. Not for Simon. And not for Monfils. But for us who dare watching it. The spectators would have some serious 'match-up issues' after every match they play.
If we were talking about matchups where both player bring each other down making for ugly matches, Monfils vs Simon would definitely be among the top ones in such discussion

MTF games titles:

Suicide Tennis (5): Wimbledon 2014, World Tour Finals 2015, Madrid 2015, Kuala Lumpur 2014 and Metz 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 WTF, 1 Masters 1000, 2 ATP 250; 2 finals lost

Fill-in-the-Draw (3): US Open 2014, Rotterdam 2013 and Geneva 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 ATP 500 and 1 ATP 250

Tennis Tipping (3): Veneza and Todi 2014 (with vn01), Knoxville 2015 (with Redkop) - 3 challengers
Mark Lenders is offline  
post #124 of 318 (permalink) Old 02-04-2013, 03:35 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Mark Lenders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 16,605
                     
Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

Adding another one because of the Montpellier draw which put these two players in collision course in the QF.

Davydenko vs Berdych

Davydenko leads 9-2, with Berdych's two wins coming on grass (where Davydenko pretty much can't beat anyone) and Dubai 2011 in a really bad period for Davydenko - it was still a close match. I believe the reason for this one is that Tomas give Kolya two things he loves: flat hitting and consistent patterns. Davydenko in his prime probably hit the ball earlier than any other player in history; Berdych's predictable hitting patterns allow Davy to do just that easily and take the initiative in most points, moving Tomas from side to side. Also, Davydenko is like a machine in terms of generating depth with his shots, he leaves very few short balls and Tomas always had problems with guys who can move him around and hit with consistent depth, making it very hard for him to get his best weapons in play. He's usually the one scrambling and under pressure to hit good shots to remain in the rallies despite being the bigger hitter of the two.

Finally, Berdych's serve doesn't have a particularly good disguise and his first serve % is very low, while Davydenko is one of the best returners of the past decade, he usually dismantles Berdych's serve. He can't even seize the initiative on his own serve, that's what makes this such an immensely difficult matchup for Tomas.

With that said, Berdych will probably win at least 50% of the matches they play from now on, considering that he is in the prime of his career and Davydenko only seems to play his best stuff occasionally, but it's a matchup that is on Kolya's hands outside grass of course.

MTF games titles:

Suicide Tennis (5): Wimbledon 2014, World Tour Finals 2015, Madrid 2015, Kuala Lumpur 2014 and Metz 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 WTF, 1 Masters 1000, 2 ATP 250; 2 finals lost

Fill-in-the-Draw (3): US Open 2014, Rotterdam 2013 and Geneva 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 ATP 500 and 1 ATP 250

Tennis Tipping (3): Veneza and Todi 2014 (with vn01), Knoxville 2015 (with Redkop) - 3 challengers
Mark Lenders is offline  
post #125 of 318 (permalink) Old 02-04-2013, 06:50 PM
Registered User
 
TennisPhan1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Age: 32
Posts: 1,707
                     
Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
Adding another one because of the Montpellier draw which put these two players in collision course in the QF.

Davydenko vs Berdych

Davydenko leads 9-2, with Berdych's two wins coming on grass (where Davydenko pretty much can't beat anyone) and Dubai 2011 in a really bad period for Davydenko - it was still a close match. I believe the reason for this one is that Tomas give Kolya two things he loves: flat hitting and consistent patterns. Davydenko in his prime probably hit the ball earlier than any other player in history; Berdych's predictable hitting patterns allow Davy to do just that easily and take the initiative in most points, moving Tomas from side to side. Also, Davydenko is like a machine in terms of generating depth with his shots, he leaves very few short balls and Tomas always had problems with guys who can move him around and hit with consistent depth, making it very hard for him to get his best weapons in play. He's usually the one scrambling and under pressure to hit good shots to remain in the rallies despite being the bigger hitter of the two.

Finally, Berdych's serve doesn't have a particularly good disguise and his first serve % is very low, while Davydenko is one of the best returners of the past decade, he usually dismantles Berdych's serve. He can't even seize the initiative on his own serve, that's what makes this such an immensely difficult matchup for Tomas.

With that said, Berdych will probably win at least 50% of the matches they play from now on, considering that he is in the prime of his career and Davydenko only seems to play his best stuff occasionally, but it's a matchup that is on Kolya's hands outside grass of course.
what about canas vs federer? Fed at his peak in 2007 lost 1-3 vs Canas. hes similair to simon?
TennisPhan1 is offline  
post #126 of 318 (permalink) Old 02-04-2013, 08:00 PM
Registered User
 
Federer-Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,970
                     
Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

Djokovic-Berdych is clearly one of the best : 12-1 !
Federer-Fan is online now  
post #127 of 318 (permalink) Old 02-04-2013, 09:47 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Mark Lenders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 16,605
                     
Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

Quote:
Originally Posted by TennisPhan1 View Post
what about canas vs federer? Fed at his peak in 2007 lost 1-3 vs Canas. hes similair to simon?
Yup, they are kind of similar in a way. Just like Simon, Canas frustrated a less than fully sharp Federer with his defense and smart play, making him beat himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Federer-Fan View Post
Djokovic-Berdych is clearly one of the best : 12-1 !
This one-sided H2H can be explained as much by a mental block as by technical aspects. Berdych can actually win sets very often and even take the first set many times, but he invariably comes up short when chances arise. Of course there are matchup issues as well: Djokovic makes mincemeat of Berdych's second serve and gets a pretty good off the first serve as well, and he is capable of redirecting his bullets and yoyo Tomas around the court a bit like Davydenko does. Maintaining good depth of shot is key to disrupting Tomas's game as he loves to pounce on short balls with his FH while he struggles to keep in rallies when he keeps getting deep, angled balls from the other side. He also can't seem to do anything on Nole's serve, even if Novak is far from a big server.

MTF games titles:

Suicide Tennis (5): Wimbledon 2014, World Tour Finals 2015, Madrid 2015, Kuala Lumpur 2014 and Metz 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 WTF, 1 Masters 1000, 2 ATP 250; 2 finals lost

Fill-in-the-Draw (3): US Open 2014, Rotterdam 2013 and Geneva 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 ATP 500 and 1 ATP 250

Tennis Tipping (3): Veneza and Todi 2014 (with vn01), Knoxville 2015 (with Redkop) - 3 challengers
Mark Lenders is offline  
post #128 of 318 (permalink) Old 02-04-2013, 09:52 PM
Registered User
 
Sanya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 2,573
                     
Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

Nadal - Monaco. I was going to vote for Monfils-Simon, but this is even worse because apart from bad styles mix here we have no faith in one player to beat another. And yep, I know that Monaco once beated Nadal when Rafa retired, but spaniard was barely moving then - irrelevant. Argentinean has absolutely nothing to hurt Nadal, he struggles to win games and almost points.

In Monfils-Simon matches you have at least some drama.

Gasquet is next №1
Sanya is online now  
post #129 of 318 (permalink) Old 02-04-2013, 09:57 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Mark Lenders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 16,605
                     
Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanya View Post
Nadal - Monaco. I was going to vote for Monfils-Simon, but this is even worse because apart from bad styles mix here we have no faith in one player to beat another. And yep, I know that Monaco once beated Nadal when Rafa retired, but spaniard was barely moving then - irrelevant. Argentinean has absolutely nothing to hurt Nadal, he struggles to win games and almost points.

In Monfils-Simon matches you have at least some drama.
Monfils vs Simon is always very tight, it definitely doesn't fit here at all.

I get your point about Nadal vs Monaco, but remember how Monaco did in his last Slam match vs Federer? Got 3 games. Miami semi vs Nole? 95% of his matches against top players? It's not that he has a specific matchup problem with Nadal, he's just generally not a threat to any top player, although yes against Nadal he usually doesn't even try such is his lack of belief/submissiveness.

MTF games titles:

Suicide Tennis (5): Wimbledon 2014, World Tour Finals 2015, Madrid 2015, Kuala Lumpur 2014 and Metz 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 WTF, 1 Masters 1000, 2 ATP 250; 2 finals lost

Fill-in-the-Draw (3): US Open 2014, Rotterdam 2013 and Geneva 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 ATP 500 and 1 ATP 250

Tennis Tipping (3): Veneza and Todi 2014 (with vn01), Knoxville 2015 (with Redkop) - 3 challengers
Mark Lenders is offline  
post #130 of 318 (permalink) Old 02-04-2013, 10:05 PM
Registered User
 
Sanya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 2,573
                     
Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
Monfils vs Simon is always very tight, it definitely doesn't fit here at all.

I get your point about Nadal vs Monaco, but remember how Monaco did in his last Slam match vs Federer? Got 3 games. Miami semi vs Nole? 95% of his matches against top players? It's not that he has a specific matchup problem with Nadal, he's just generally not a threat to any top player, although yes against Nadal he usually doesn't even try such is his lack of belief/submissiveness.
Well, in Rome he was leading set and break this year against Djokovic and I can imagine him take a set off Roger if Fed starts making errors left and right. He has positive H2H record with Ferrer if I`m not mistaken and he beated Andy at least once in tight match. But with Nadal... Sincerely, even after 8 months of being out of tennis if these two will play in the final this Sunday I will be shocked in case Monaco taking more than 3 games in any set.

Gasquet is next №1
Sanya is online now  
post #131 of 318 (permalink) Old 02-04-2013, 10:05 PM
.
 
rocketassist's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 28,693
                     
Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

Monaco vs Nadal is partly match-up but also partly the fact he's so in awe of him he just rolls over like a girl. Nieminen, Ferrer, Simon, Benneteau, even Boredo, are all players with limited weaponry who have given Nadal either defeats or tight contests so I don't see why Monaco couldn't.

unbiased analyst extraordinaire
rocketassist is offline  
post #132 of 318 (permalink) Old 02-04-2013, 10:31 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Mark Lenders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 16,605
                     
Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanya View Post
Well, in Rome he was leading set and break this year against Djokovic and I can imagine him take a set off Roger if Fed starts making errors left and right. He has positive H2H record with Ferrer if I`m not mistaken and he beated Andy at least once in tight match. But with Nadal... Sincerely, even after 8 months of being out of tennis if these two will play in the final this Sunday I will be shocked in case Monaco taking more than 3 games in any set.
He's generally useless against the top players though, even Tsonga on clay owns him. I'm not surprised his only decent records are against Ferrer and Murray, they're the only two players in the top 8 who won't ever really blow you off the court but rather outgrind/outmanoeuver you - Monaco is more comfortable with that. Against the rest of the elite pack, his short weak balls are mercilessly punished by big forehands/backhands. I suspect that now that Murray has added some more firepower to his game he'll have much less trouble disposing of Monaco. I remember in his USO match against Federer he kept trying to attack but all he did was set perfect platforms for Roger to unleash his forehand.

I do agree that it's worse than normal against Nadal. Don't think it's matchup related though, but mental. Monaco never seems to believe he can beat Nadal; against the rest, he also loses but at least fights much harder, against Nadal he seems beaten from the very first point. The fact that they practice together often means Nadal knows his game inside out, there's basically nothing Monaco can do to surprise him or throw him off guard.

MTF games titles:

Suicide Tennis (5): Wimbledon 2014, World Tour Finals 2015, Madrid 2015, Kuala Lumpur 2014 and Metz 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 WTF, 1 Masters 1000, 2 ATP 250; 2 finals lost

Fill-in-the-Draw (3): US Open 2014, Rotterdam 2013 and Geneva 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 ATP 500 and 1 ATP 250

Tennis Tipping (3): Veneza and Todi 2014 (with vn01), Knoxville 2015 (with Redkop) - 3 challengers
Mark Lenders is offline  
post #133 of 318 (permalink) Old 02-04-2013, 10:33 PM
Registered User
 
Brick Top's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Planet Djokovic
Posts: 2,468
                     
Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

Ferrer vs any decent player

Heroes
Djoker = GOAT
DelPo = Purger of the Vultures
Hewitt = Llegend
Iron STan = Saviour of tennis
Villains
Nadull - moonballer with zero talent
Ferrer - Talentless Vulture
Tomic - overrated mug who will never win anything big

Quote:
Originally Posted by SliceAce View Post
Basically, Queerey is a disgrace to the human race.
Brick Top is offline  
post #134 of 318 (permalink) Old 02-04-2013, 11:11 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Mark Lenders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 16,605
                     
Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
Monaco vs Nadal is partly match-up but also partly the fact he's so in awe of him he just rolls over like a girl. Nieminen, Ferrer, Simon, Benneteau, even Boredo, are all players with limited weaponry who have given Nadal either defeats or tight contests so I don't see why Monaco couldn't.
Even Devvarman kept it closer when he played Nadal

Speaking of Nadal, his matchup with Dolgopolov is a good example here. For starters, Dolgo is far too erratic for perhaps the steadiest baseliner in tennis history who will give no points away. As if that were not enough, Dolgo slices far too much: there's basically no more suicidal tactic in tennis than slicing to Nadal's forehand (even Federer has fully abandoned that tactic), Nadal accelerating those balls with his forehand. Results: 6-4, 6-3, 6-1, 6-2, 6-3, 6-2.

MTF games titles:

Suicide Tennis (5): Wimbledon 2014, World Tour Finals 2015, Madrid 2015, Kuala Lumpur 2014 and Metz 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 WTF, 1 Masters 1000, 2 ATP 250; 2 finals lost

Fill-in-the-Draw (3): US Open 2014, Rotterdam 2013 and Geneva 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 ATP 500 and 1 ATP 250

Tennis Tipping (3): Veneza and Todi 2014 (with vn01), Knoxville 2015 (with Redkop) - 3 challengers
Mark Lenders is offline  
post #135 of 318 (permalink) Old 03-27-2013, 02:22 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Mark Lenders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 16,605
                     
Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

Time to bump this again with one of the biggest mismatches between top 20 players: Del Potro vs Haas

Haas has never even forced a tiebreak in 4 matches. The problem he has is the same as players like Nishikori and Tipsarevic (who never took a set off Delpo either) do, it's that he's not comfortable at all defending and Del Potro loves nothing more than facing offensive baseliners with poor defense. His ability to generate consistent power and depth especially off the forehand from any position on the court pretty much means that anyone without the ability to soak up and redirect that sort of power is a good matchup for him. Del Potro vs Haas exchanges usually follow the same pattern, with Haas trying to hit through Del Potro but the Argentine getting the upperhand in irreversible fashion as long as he gets a full swing on the FH, leading to a short ball or a shank from Haas. Haas also has a lot of problems reading the Del Potro serve, which only increases his problems in this matchup.

Since we're on Haas here, Haas vs Nadal is another obvious case, actually Haas can still give a good match to anyone in the top 8 bar Nadal and Del Potro.

Haas never took a set and it's easy to see why. He can't hit through Nadal at all and Rafa systematically breaks down his BH with his topspin FH. I suppose this matchup could look more competitive if they played on grass when it's still fast though.

MTF games titles:

Suicide Tennis (5): Wimbledon 2014, World Tour Finals 2015, Madrid 2015, Kuala Lumpur 2014 and Metz 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 WTF, 1 Masters 1000, 2 ATP 250; 2 finals lost

Fill-in-the-Draw (3): US Open 2014, Rotterdam 2013 and Geneva 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 ATP 500 and 1 ATP 250

Tennis Tipping (3): Veneza and Todi 2014 (with vn01), Knoxville 2015 (with Redkop) - 3 challengers

Last edited by Mark Lenders; 03-27-2013 at 02:32 AM.
Mark Lenders is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the MensTennisForums.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome