In-depth analysis of matchups/matchup issues between ATP players - Page 8 - MensTennisForums.com

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post #106 of 318 (permalink) Old 10-10-2012, 07:18 PM
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Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

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Are you sure you're talking about Gasquet here? Against whom does he 'close gaps beween him and the opponent by moving forward and coming to the net'?
Admittedly, I completely misremembered his encounters with Simon. I was under the impression that net play accounted for much of his success against Gilles, probably because it makes the most sense on paper. But after revisiting a few of their matches, I realized how very wrong about that.


Ultimately, and to your original point, Ferrer augments Gasquet's general problem of playing too far behind the court, where Richard will get little done against a player like David.
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post #107 of 318 (permalink) Old 10-10-2012, 07:19 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

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Only one - In 2008 DelPo has had 46-16 w/l record, has won four titles and before TMC 2008 he was ranked 8th. I mean, 8th player in the world is a genuine top player, right?
Well, he was a solid top 10 player but he only became truly elite in 2009. Either way, it's hardly relevant. The point is that Djokovic vs Del Potro is not as favorable/comfortable a matchup as the 6-2 H2H might suggest imo.

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Lenders, you are deluded to think that Del-Potro has only lost to Djokovic because he was injured. You're sounding as bad as a Nadal fan.

The Djokovic blend of attack and defense will always be too much for a one-dimensional basher, and heck, even Murray (Djokovic-Lite) has wins against Del-Potro.
I'd indeed be very deluded if I thought this, which I don't
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post #108 of 318 (permalink) Old 10-10-2012, 07:21 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

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Admittedly, I completely misremembered his encounters with Simon. I was under the impression that net play accounted for much of his success against Gilles, probably because it makes the most sense on paper. But after revisiting a few of their matches, I realized how very wrong about that.


Ultimately, and to your original point, Ferrer augments Gasquet's general problem of playing too far behind the court, where Richard will get little done against a player like David.
Fair enough, it was an honest mistake

Agree with the last paragraph, that pretty much explains the loopsided H2H. With his court positioning, he's a sitting duck against a player like Ferrer: he doesn't have the power or consistency to blow him off the court or the movement/defense to win a baseline grinding contest. He has no chance, hence the scores.
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post #109 of 318 (permalink) Old 10-10-2012, 07:48 PM
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Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

Simon is someone Gasquet can actually push around, hence his dominant H2H.

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post #110 of 318 (permalink) Old 10-11-2012, 12:33 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

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Simon is someone Gasquet can actually push around, hence his dominant H2H.
He shouldn't though. Simon can actually flatten out his shots when he wants to, not to mention his rally FH is far superior to Gasquet's.

This is another reason Ferrer owns Gasquet: while not a weapon, Ferrer's rally FH is solid and he can get good depth on it, while Gasquet's sucks hence Ferrer dominates every FH exchange. That said, with Gasquet miles behind the baseline dropping plenty of short balls, even Ferrer's FH looks like a deadly weapon as he can easily dominate with it.
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post #111 of 318 (permalink) Old 10-11-2012, 12:59 AM
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Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

If it was mainly due to the rally forehand Gasquet would be losing to 90% of the tour.

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post #112 of 318 (permalink) Old 10-11-2012, 01:02 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

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If it was mainly due to the rally forehand Gasquet would be losing to 90% of the tour.
It's not the main reason (the main reasons were already mentioned in previous posts), but getting pwned in FH exchanges only further adds to Gasquet's problems in this matchup.
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post #113 of 318 (permalink) Old 10-11-2012, 09:41 PM
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Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

Two more that seem interesting....

Hewitt/Karlovic. Karlovic leads the H2H despite being basically all-serve, and Hewitt had one of the best return games on the tour, matching up very well with other S&V players.

Federer/Murray. Particularly given Fed usually owns Muzza at Slams.

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post #114 of 318 (permalink) Old 10-22-2012, 11:18 PM
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Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

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haha, we do

Good thread btw

And seen as though it hasn't been mentioned yet, what style/match-up is worst for Tsonga? Out of players, from what i've seen Jo struggles a little bit with Murray. Their H2H is 6-1 in Andy's favour with Jo's win coming at the 2008 Aussie open (Jo's best tournament to date)
Tsonga also struggles with Kei Nishikori (0-3). Tsonga has not been able to beat him yet. It's like he can't find rhythm when he plays Nishikori.
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post #115 of 318 (permalink) Old 10-22-2012, 11:33 PM
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Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

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Berdych. The effortless stand and dictate power game he plays has Andy on the run often and he doesn't get the same opportunities to move him around like he does other big hitting players- plus Tomas handles his variety better than them.
It's really odd how Berdych is the opposite of most big hitters, he has little trouble with variety but against someone like Djokovic, Nishikori and Simon he gets blasted off the court.

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post #116 of 318 (permalink) Old 10-22-2012, 11:37 PM
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Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

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yes also Cilic when he's in a "few errors" day, both Berdych and Cilic have a very good return to attack second serves, and it's useful against Murray, although his second serve has improved.

Another one who has a good H2H against Murray is Baghdatis, and he also attacks Murray's second serve.

Another possibility is to grind out Murray : Ferrer can do it for instance.
Ferrer can do it on clay, but not on other surfaces. Cilic is has only ever beaten Murray once out 6 or 7 tries, so I don't think he's a good example.

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post #117 of 318 (permalink) Old 10-22-2012, 11:42 PM
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Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

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Originally Posted by out_grinder View Post
Lenders, you are deluded to think that Del-Potro has only lost to Djokovic because he was injured. You're sounding as bad as a Nadal fan.

The Djokovic blend of attack and defense will always be too much for a one-dimensional basher, and heck, even Murray (Djokovic-Lite) has wins against Del-Potro.
Murray has a better record against Del Po than Djokovic.

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post #118 of 318 (permalink) Old 02-01-2013, 02:52 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

Time to revive this thread with one more mismatch. I'll look through the entire thread and add links to specific matchup analysis in the OP soon.

Murray vs Simon

Murray vs Murray light? Everything Simon does, Murray does better - he's pretty much a fitter, stronger and more athletic version of Simon. You almost feel that he can routine Simon without really getting out of second gear. This is arguably one of the very worst mismatches in tennis: in a matchup like say Berdych vs Nadal, if Tomas redlines his game and plays his best he can definitely win, if Simon plays his very best against Murray odds are he's still losing in quite straightforward fashion. He doesn't have any weapons to hit through Murray and while he's consistent off the baseline, Murray is even more so.

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Two more that seem interesting....

Hewitt/Karlovic. Karlovic leads the H2H despite being basically all-serve, and Hewitt had one of the best return games on the tour, matching up very well with other S&V players.

Federer/Murray. Particularly given Fed usually owns Muzza at Slams.
Karlovic's serve is not your traditional big serve, it's the best there ever was. Some players could get a decentish read on it, Hewitt wasn't one of them, he couldn't cope with the combination of power and angles.

Federer vs Murray is an interesting one. When Federer is really on his game, Murray pretty much has no chance as he doesn't have the tools to take the initiative off Federer. But when Federer is even a bit off ie prone to shank every third backhand, Murray has the ideal skillset to frustrate him ie he can attack his second serves and defend him into oblivion provoking shanks and mishits, etc... Post-2007 Federer was rarely at his best for non-Slams/WTF, which explains the H2H. Even at their respective ages, I'd still expect Federer to win most of their Slam meetings, although his decreased recovery powers might throw a spanner in the works (ie if he plays a five setter before facing Murray his task will be much harder).

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post #119 of 318 (permalink) Old 02-01-2013, 02:54 AM
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Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

Del Shitro vs Ferrer. Better, smarter, more tactical player owns brainless ballbashing and slug-like movement
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post #120 of 318 (permalink) Old 02-01-2013, 03:06 AM
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Re: Worst matchup issues between top (10/20) players

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Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
T
Federer vs Murray is an interesting one. When Federer is really on his game, Murray pretty much has no chance as he doesn't have the tools to take the initiative off Federer. But when Federer is even a bit off ie prone to shank every third backhand, Murray has the ideal skillset to frustrate him ie he can attack his second serves and defend him into oblivion provoking shanks and mishits, etc... Post-2007 Federer was rarely at his best for non-Slams/WTF, which explains the H2H. Even at their respective ages, I'd still expect Federer to win most of their Slam meetings, although his decreased recovery powers might throw a spanner in the works (ie if he plays a five setter before facing Murray his task will be much harder).
At the AO match Murray was actually out-hitting and overpowering Federer off the ground for long periods of the match. Of course, Andy's offensive ground game has improved immensely, but the Federer of old wouldn't be getting bullied by him, which is a sign of his decline really.

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