Johnny Groove's Top 69 Players Ever (Djokovic #11 of all time, Wawrinka #56) - Page 85 - MensTennisForums.com
View Poll Results: How accurate was I?
5/5- Almost 100% spot on, Mr. Groove. I may switch a few around here or there, but good work 68 18.43%
4/5- More or less. I disagree with a few, but not bad at all 154 41.73%
3/5- Hmmmm, I dunno. Some look a bit dicey, mate 53 14.36%
2/5- Are you nuts? Why is X player in Y position? You are completely dissing Z player! 19 5.15%
1/5- Are you high and or drunk? WTF?!?!?! 75 20.33%
Voters: 369. You may not vote on this poll

 
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post #1261 of 1787 (permalink) Old 12-25-2012, 01:03 PM
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Exclamation Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

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Originally Posted by Johnny Groove View Post
Now, combined, all time forever standard, Master List:

1. Pancho Gonzales, 364 weeks and 20.66 slams
2. Rod Laver, 277 weeks and 19.195 slams
3. Roger Federer, 300 weeks and 17 slams
4. Bill Tilden, 330 weeks and 14.143 slams
5. Ken Rosewall, 242 weeks and 20.2 slams
6. Pete Sampras, 286 weeks and 14 slams
7. Don Budge, 303 weeks and 10.5 slams
8. William Renshaw, 286 weeks and 11.165 slams
9. Laurie Doherty, 252 weeks and 7.665 slams
10. Jack Kramer, 234 weeks and 8.195 slams
11. Ivan Lendl, 234 weeks and 8 slams
12. Ellsworth Vines, 191 weeks and 10.035 slams
13. William Larned- 199 weeks and 8 slams
14. Bjorn Borg, 150 weeks and 11 slams
15. Joshua Pim, 173 weeks 9 slams
16. Jimmy Connors, 182 weeks and 8 slams
17. Bobby Riggs, 156 weeks and 8.98 slams
18. John McEnroe, 170 weeks and 7 slams
19. Henri Cochet, 147 weeks and 8.145 slams
20. Rafael Nadal, 102 weeks and 11 slams
sorry, but I don't think Renshaw merit such a rank (#8). In this time, they were five or six to play tennis lol
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post #1262 of 1787 (permalink) Old 12-25-2012, 05:35 PM
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Re: Professor Groove's Top 159 Players Ever (Fed- 3, Nadal- 20, Nole- 36, Murray- 107

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Originally Posted by Plazbovo View Post
hello,
I'm a new poster fan on this forum.
Well, this classement is no ridiculous at all. Gonzales n°1 is a probability, even if I class still Rod Laver over everybody. Here is my top 10 on a period 1948-2012 (I won't try to analyse before 1948, whereas amators and pros could compare each other. How hard is to admit Lacoste, Cochet, Vines and Tilden were above all these guys (or not) !

1 Laver 2 Federer 3 Rosewall 4 Lendl 5 Gonzales
6 Connors 7 Sampras 8 McEnroe 9 Borg 10 Nadal

I think my different ranks from the original one come from my sensibility to consider not only slams but other tournaments like master cup or masters 1000, where the top champions were present. Lendl was amazingly regular between 1982 and 1987 in these other tournaments.
I definitely agree that 1948 is a more appropriate time to start ranking players. I basically agree with your list, except I would rank Gonzalez over Lendl and Sampras over Connors. I think Johnny Groove is putting to much emphasis on weeks at #1. It is really difficult to determine, accurately, how many weeks the Pro Tour players were at #1. Rosewall was joint #1 a few years and sole #1 for 3 years. I also think slams are slams, other top tournaments are NOT slams and should not be considerd as slams. Taking away his amateur slams, Rosewall has 19 official slams, 15 on the Pro Tour and 4 in the open era. Pro slams should have the same stature, as the world's best competed in them at that time.
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post #1263 of 1787 (permalink) Old 12-26-2012, 01:55 AM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

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sorry, but I don't think Renshaw merit such a rank (#8). In this time, they were five or six to play tennis lol
Can't believe someone hasn't drawn the ridiculous Don Bradman analogy yet. Anyway, I completely agree with you.
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post #1264 of 1787 (permalink) Old 12-26-2012, 02:19 AM
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Re: Professor Groove's Top 159 Players Ever (Fed- 3, Nadal- 20, Nole- 36, Murray- 107

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TOTALLY IGNORANT STATEMENT. SMITH AND ASHE ARE DEFINITELY SUPERIOR TO RODDICK, NO CONTEST!
Roddick has around the same number of GS QFs and SFs, as Ashe, has around the same number of wins, around the same number of win percentage, and didn't lose 5 slam finals to Federer. Ashe is the closest comparable to Roddick of any tennis player.

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post #1265 of 1787 (permalink) Old 12-26-2012, 09:22 AM
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Re: Professor Groove's Top 159 Players Ever (Fed- 3, Nadal- 20, Nole- 36, Murray- 107

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Originally Posted by Plazbovo View Post
hello,
I'm a new poster fan on this forum.
Well, this classement is no ridiculous at all. Gonzales n°1 is a probability, even if I class still Rod Laver over everybody. Here is my top 10 on a period 1948-2012 (I won't try to analyse before 1948, whereas amators and pros could compare each other. How hard is to admit Lacoste, Cochet, Vines and Tilden were above all these guys (or not) !

1 Laver 2 Federer 3 Rosewall 4 Lendl 5 Gonzales
6 Connors 7 Sampras 8 McEnroe 9 Borg 10 Nadal

I think my different ranks from the original one come from my sensibility to consider not only slams but other tournaments like master cup or masters 1000, where the top champions were present. Lendl was amazingly regular between 1982 and 1987 in these other tournaments.
I agree with you on several points, but if you highly consider players' regularity outside of slams, I'm surprised that you put Borg so low, as his percentage of losses was very low, even though the tournaments outside slams were even less representative (that is not with all the top-players) in his time than in Lendl's time ... but he played a little bit less of them than Lendl. Also even though Borg had a surprisingly high number of walkovers.

Borg's winning % : 84% in 1976, 91% in 1977, 89% in 1978, 92% in 1979, 90% in 1980, 85% in 1981.
Lendl : 92% in 1982, 82% in 1983, 79% in 1984, 92% in 1985, 93% in 1986, 91% in 1987, 84% in 1988, 92% in 1989, 82% in 1990

useless old guy

Last edited by duong; 12-26-2012 at 10:01 AM. Reason: walkovers
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post #1266 of 1787 (permalink) Old 12-26-2012, 09:41 AM
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Re: Professor Groove's Top 159 Players Ever (Fed- 3, Nadal- 20, Nole- 36, Murray- 107

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In reality, there is NO ONE GOAT! There is, IMO, a group of super elite players throughout tennis history. The obvious Super Elites are in no particular order: Laver, Rosewall, Federer, Gonzalez, and Sampras. Tier 2: Nadal, Borg, Tilden Perry,Cochet, Lacoste, Connors, McEnroe and Agassi. Tier 3: Edberg, Becker, Djokovic and Hoad. I rank Cochet and Lacoste above Tilden, because they usually beat him and won slams on clay and grass. Tilden never won a clay slam, except perhaps the one French Pro title he won. As great a player as Hoad was, at times, he never dominated on the Pro Tour usually losing to Rosewall when he did reach the finals.
so Djokovic is in Tier 3 but Wilander isn't?

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post #1267 of 1787 (permalink) Old 12-26-2012, 09:10 PM
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Re: Professor Groove's Top 159 Players Ever (Fed- 3, Nadal- 20, Nole- 36, Murray- 107

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so Djokovic is in Tier 3 but Wilander isn't?
MY MISTAKE! For some reason I, and others, tend to forget about Wilander which is very unfair to him. He definintely belongs in my tier 3.
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post #1268 of 1787 (permalink) Old 12-26-2012, 09:39 PM
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Re: Professor Groove's Top 159 Players Ever (Fed- 3, Nadal- 20, Nole- 36, Murray- 107

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MY MISTAKE! For some reason I, and others, tend to forget about Wilander which is very unfair to him. He definintely belongs in my tier 3.
Maybe, when you find time, you can put Lendl on the list too if he deserves it

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post #1269 of 1787 (permalink) Old 12-26-2012, 10:24 PM
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Re: Professor Groove's Top 159 Players Ever (Fed- 3, Nadal- 20, Nole- 36, Murray- 107

Murray too high and wtf is Korda doing on the list?

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post #1270 of 1787 (permalink) Old 12-26-2012, 11:38 PM
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Re: Professor Groove's Top 159 Players Ever (Fed- 3, Nadal- 20, Nole- 36, Murray- 107

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MY MISTAKE! For some reason I, and others, tend to forget about Wilander which is very unfair to him. He definintely belongs in my tier 3.
haha yeah he floats out of my mind sometimes too, no biggy, you were writing a list on the fly!

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post #1271 of 1787 (permalink) Old 01-03-2013, 03:19 PM
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Re: Professor Groove's Top 159 Players Ever (Fed- 3, Nadal- 20, Nole- 36, Murray- 107

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I agree with you on several points, but if you highly consider players' regularity outside of slams, I'm surprised that you put Borg so low, as his percentage of losses was very low, even though the tournaments outside slams were even less representative (that is not with all the top-players) in his time than in Lendl's time ... but he played a little bit less of them than Lendl. Also even though Borg had a surprisingly high number of walkovers ...
Borg would have a best rank if his career had not been brutally stopped at 25. Obviously, we can legitimally believe Borg would have won a few more tournaments if he had continued at least until 30 years old. But this great champion had lost his motivation for playing, and this "appetite" belongs to the game. "Stop your career, Bjorn, but your palmares will be less great than for some others champions like McEnroe or ... Connors who will stop one day but nb 40 !"

My list is not the product of my intuitions but the result of a calcul similar to Johnny Groove's. But with some important differences : I only consider titles (no point for a runner-up) for all the tournaments recognized since 1948. Besides, as I said, I take care of minor tournaments in regard of precise criteras. You can find the criteras here (in french, sorry): http://plazbovo.free.fr/c.i.g.___criteres_389.htm

About period before 1948, I have considered there was a too weak competition level comparing with post-ww2 era. EG : Tilden and French Musketeers who were above all the others in the 1920's can't rivalise with more recent deal. Thats's why I won't rank Tilden better than #7 whereas he had dominated his sport like rarely it has happened in the history.
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post #1272 of 1787 (permalink) Old 01-03-2013, 06:17 PM
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Re: Professor Groove's Top 159 Players Ever (Fed- 3, Nadal- 20, Nole- 36, Murray- 107

Louis X is taking control here with approximately 2500 weeks at #1 position (until Charles V showed better performances 50 years after him).

But if we add an eventually important criteria, which is - The Best among how many? And we'd have a list quite different than the above, in which neither Pancho, nor Don Quixote will be as high as they are.

Slams played in 1 or 2 matches - not equal real Slams.

Better than 28 players? Not the same as better than 2000.

These would put order in the otherwise interesting ranking and would make it pretty plausible, especially when the undeserved #3 goes up to his obvious place, with a solid margin ahead.

Otherwise i'm creating a new sport in my backyard in which i will be the best forever, as i will reveal the rules on my dying bed.
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post #1273 of 1787 (permalink) Old 01-03-2013, 07:11 PM
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Re: Professor Groove's Top 159 Players Ever (Fed- 3, Nadal- 20, Nole- 36, Murray- 107

Edward III was the original GOAT - 2300 weeks #1. only fell at death.

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post #1274 of 1787 (permalink) Old 03-26-2013, 06:13 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Johnny Groove's Top 101 Players Ever (Fed- 1, Rafa- 10, Nole- 26, Muzz- 83, JMDP-

New revised list in the opening 2 posts. Still much work to do here, but I believe I have the skeleton. Muscles and organs to follow.

Yes, Murray and Del Potro have made the list.

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post #1275 of 1787 (permalink) Old 03-26-2013, 06:23 PM
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Re: Johnny Groove's Top 101 Players Ever (Fed- 1, Rafa- 10, Nole- 26, Muzz- 83, JMDP-

I used to love this thread. Now it's too complicated and boring. 0.8 Slams? Give it a rest. I get taking into account eras in which Slams are won, but this is going too far and wasting your time Groove. I mean, you can't scientifically count the exact order of best players in history. There will always be someone who disagrees with the list and after all, that's what threads are for - discussion.

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