Johnny Groove's Top 69 Players Ever (Djokovic #11 of all time, Wawrinka #56) - Page 77 - MensTennisForums.com

View Poll Results: How accurate was I?
5/5- Almost 100% spot on, Mr. Groove. I may switch a few around here or there, but good work 68 18.43%
4/5- More or less. I disagree with a few, but not bad at all 154 41.73%
3/5- Hmmmm, I dunno. Some look a bit dicey, mate 53 14.36%
2/5- Are you nuts? Why is X player in Y position? You are completely dissing Z player! 19 5.15%
1/5- Are you high and or drunk? WTF?!?!?! 75 20.33%
Voters: 369. You may not vote on this poll

 
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post #1141 of 1787 (permalink) Old 10-11-2012, 07:44 PM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (All slam champs and #1's, post #11

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He will be added to the full list, which will stretch beyond 150. Murray will be just outside the top 100.
You must be joking?

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post #1142 of 1787 (permalink) Old 10-11-2012, 07:47 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (All slam champs and #1's, post #11

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Originally Posted by manadrainer View Post
Apart from the week count which is obviously an approximation, how did you count Gonzalez 27 slams?

On wiki he has 14 (counting both slams and pro-slams). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_...singles_titles

If anything it's Rosewall who should be up at 23 (well I wouldn't count his 4 slams pre-open era since they were amateurs events, I would count the pro-slams instead, for a total of 19).
Wiki is very close, but not 100% accurate.

It is all on post 1125, Gonzales won his slams from 1948 until 1961.

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post #1143 of 1787 (permalink) Old 10-11-2012, 08:25 PM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (All slam champs and #1's, post #11

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Wiki is very close, but not 100% accurate.

It is all on post 1125, Gonzales won his slams from 1948 until 1961.
I see you're counting Tournament of Champions as slams... I think you should count WFT titles in modern era then.

Anyway I think you should stick to wiki's count, perhaps subtracting amateur slams. As I said before, I think Rosewall leads the list with 19 (discounting 4 amateur slams)

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302 weeks at #1
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Last edited by manadrainer; 10-11-2012 at 08:36 PM.
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post #1144 of 1787 (permalink) Old 10-11-2012, 08:55 PM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (All slam champs and #1's, post #11

You're assuming that Pancho and other guys from pre open era were the deserved number one all weeks from each year (or half weeks of year when co-number one)when they are the year end number one. This overestimate their weeks. The result of this overestimation is the high number of players from pre open era in the list. IMO this is not the fair way to do that.
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post #1145 of 1787 (permalink) Old 10-11-2012, 09:01 PM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (All slam champs and #1's, post #11

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You're assuming that Pancho and other guys from pre open era were the deserved number one all weeks from each year (or half weeks of year when co-number one)when they are the year end number one. This overestimate their weeks. The result of this overestimation is the high number of players from pre open era in the list. IMO this is not the fair way to do that.
Agreed. For example last year Nole has been Y.E. #1, and probably will be this year: if we used your pre-computer count Nole should have 104 weeks at #1, instead by the end of 2012 he'll probably have around 60. Big difference.

8th day of July 2012: 7-time Wimbledon champion!

Once upon a time there was a myth about strong and weak eras. On this glorious day the clownery was eventually unmasked: 30 y.o. past-prime daddy Fed became #1 once again in the supposed strong "Spartan" era with his rivals at their peak.
And they all lived happily ever after.
Long live King Federer!


17 Grand Slam titles
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post #1146 of 1787 (permalink) Old 10-11-2012, 11:55 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (All slam champs and #1's, post #11

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Originally Posted by manadrainer View Post
I see you're counting Tournament of Champions as slams... I think you should count WFT titles in modern era then.

Anyway I think you should stick to wiki's count, perhaps subtracting amateur slams. As I said before, I think Rosewall leads the list with 19 (discounting 4 amateur slams)
Why wouldn't I? TOC was a Pro Slam, according to Karoly Mazak and his pdf, The Concise History of Tennis. I counted all slams.

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You're assuming that Pancho and other guys from pre open era were the deserved number one all weeks from each year (or half weeks of year when co-number one)when they are the year end number one. This overestimate their weeks. The result of this overestimation is the high number of players from pre open era in the list. IMO this is not the fair way to do that.
It is, in my opinion, the most fair way to do it. Many years there were split #1's.

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post #1147 of 1787 (permalink) Old 10-12-2012, 02:32 AM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (Murray one slam away from making l

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1. Pancho Gonzales- 364 weeks
2. Bill Tilden- 330 weeks
4. Don Budge- 303 weeks
5. Willie Renshaw- 286 weeks
6. Rod Laver- 277 weeks
How did you get all those weeks when there was no weekly rankings?
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post #1148 of 1787 (permalink) Old 10-12-2012, 02:36 AM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (All slam champs and #1's, post #11

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You're assuming that Pancho and other guys from pre open era were the deserved number one all weeks from each year (or half weeks of year when co-number one)when they are the year end number one. This overestimate their weeks. The result of this overestimation is the high number of players from pre open era in the list. IMO this is not the fair way to do that.

Exactly!

using year end ranking to calculate number of weeks at #1 is ridiculous. Roddick was YE #1 in 2003, and yet how many weeks was he actually at #1?
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post #1149 of 1787 (permalink) Old 10-12-2012, 02:39 AM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (All slam champs and #1's, post #11

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It is, in my opinion, the most fair way to do it. Many years there were split #1's.
No, it is not most fair way to do it because it is extreme gross estimation, and everyone knows that it grossly inflates the number of weeks.
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post #1150 of 1787 (permalink) Old 10-12-2012, 02:51 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (All slam champs and #1's, post #11

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No, it is not most fair way to do it because it is extreme gross estimation, and everyone knows that it grossly inflates the number of weeks.
Not really.

Tell me, who else would you have instead of Gonzales for even 1 week? Pancho OWNED the 50's with an iron fist.

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The only thing you owe the audience is a good performance
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There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things.
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post #1151 of 1787 (permalink) Old 10-12-2012, 04:33 AM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (All slam champs and #1's, post #11

I counted only 17 slams titles (and those include amateur slams, pro slams and tournament of champions)that Gonzales won.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancho_...eer_statistics

So where's this 27 slams that you counted, Groove?
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post #1152 of 1787 (permalink) Old 10-12-2012, 05:03 AM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (All slam champs and #1's, post #11

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I counted only 17 slams titles (and those include amateur slams, pro slams and tournament of champions)that Gonzales won.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancho_...eer_statistics

So where's this 27 slams that you counted, Groove?
In post #1125, as the thread title says.
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post #1153 of 1787 (permalink) Old 10-12-2012, 06:54 AM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (All slam champs and #1's, post #11

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And go week by week? Even I hardly have such time. With Connors, he at least split with Ashe in '75, so I gave Ashe 27 weeks, one week over half. I gave 14 to Vilas, one week more than 1/4 of the season in '77.

For Lendl, his numbers from 89 and 90 are a bit screwy. Becker was the true year end in 89, and I awarded him an extra 20 weeks, and for Edberg, I gave him 13 from Lendl, another 1/4 of the season. Have you an alternate method?



For Gonzales, he won 27 slams in his career.
Well this is a bit ridiculous. The number in parenthesis is Johnny Groove Adjusted Slams. I averaged the 2, which is where I got 20+ for Pancho.

Not sure I agree with number and its seems subjective which classifies as a professional GS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_p...e_the_Open_Era

Additionally most with small draws albeit very high quality and on indoors wood.

The current greatness league of active players in order of achievements to date (a factual comparison rather than fan biased assessment):

Federer 17 GS, 6 Year End Masters, 24 Master Series.
Nadal 14 GS, 27 Master Series, 1 Olympic Gold.
Djokovic 9 GS, 4 Year End Masters, 24 Master Series.


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post #1154 of 1787 (permalink) Old 10-12-2012, 07:29 AM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (All slam champs and #1's, post #11

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For Gonzales, he won 27 slams in his career. Well this is a bit ridiculous. The number in parenthesis is Johnny Groove Adjusted Slams. I averaged the 2, which is where I got 20+ for Pancho.
One thing I don't get, why would you adjust your own adjustment? I'd think you'd use JGAS and not adjust it once more. After the second adjustment, there's more than 4 major-equivalent points pr year to be had for much of the pre-open era.
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post #1155 of 1787 (permalink) Old 10-12-2012, 07:31 AM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (All slam champs and #1's, post #11

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Not really.

Tell me, who else would you have instead of Gonzales for even 1 week? Pancho OWNED the 50's with an iron fist.
Pancho did not own 1950-1953.
And I assume you are assuming Pancho was consistently #1 from 1 January 1954 to 31 December 1960 in Pro ranking.

and no, Pancho did not own the 50s with an iron fist. If he had, then how did:
Lew Hoad win ToC in 1959?,
Rosewall win Wembley Pro in 1957 and 1960 and FO in 1958 and 1960?
Trabert win FO in 1956?
Alex Olmedo win US pro in 1960?
Mal Anderson win in Wembley pro in 1959?

I am not questioning that he was the most dominant player during 1954 to 1959, but during those stretch, he also lost many matches to other top players, including Sedgman, Segurra, Trabert, Hoad, Rosewall.

Who knows, if you apply current points to those era, maybe Sedgman or Segurra was #1 in the first half of 1954, or that Hoad and Rosewall were #1 in more than a few weeks in later half of 1950s.

Also, in 1958, Gonzales and Sedgman split #1, and in 1959 Gonzales and Hoad split #1. This #1 split never happened not even for a week during open era as far as I know, and the chance of it happening statistically is very very small.

Even Rios (who was never a slam champion) was #1, or Roddick with his lone USO, etc etc.

so I am still maintaining that it is gross inflation to say that Pancho had 7x52 weeks = 364 weeks.

Also, and this is very important:

Pancho Gonzales RETIRED in 16 May 1960 before he unretired in 30 december 1960, so he could not have been #1 for 364 weeks just for this fact alone.

Last edited by atennisfan; 10-12-2012 at 07:59 AM.
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