Johnny Groove's Top 69 Players Ever (Djokovic #11 of all time, Wawrinka #56) - Page 60 - MensTennisForums.com
View Poll Results: How accurate was I?
5/5- Almost 100% spot on, Mr. Groove. I may switch a few around here or there, but good work 68 18.58%
4/5- More or less. I disagree with a few, but not bad at all 154 42.08%
3/5- Hmmmm, I dunno. Some look a bit dicey, mate 53 14.48%
2/5- Are you nuts? Why is X player in Y position? You are completely dissing Z player! 19 5.19%
1/5- Are you high and or drunk? WTF?!?!?! 72 19.67%
Voters: 366. You may not vote on this poll

 
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post #886 of 1782 (permalink) Old 09-16-2012, 03:23 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (Murray one slam away from making l

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Originally Posted by Sombrerero loco View Post
no gerulaitis on the list? =(
Only 1 slam, career high rank of 3, surely he is not better than the likes of Safin/Rafter/Kafelnikov?

Vitas was a legend of the game, for sure, this can be no doubt. Off the court more than on, and was a great person. Borg and Mac and Connors could tell more. He was right with those guys for a good while, like Murray today with the top 3, though I think Murray will win more.

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Originally Posted by Novak Djokovic
Obviously, you play a lot of mind games with yourself, but it is important to always believe that you can play your best, perform your best, and in the end, your convictions are stronger than your doubts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
If I took the time to respond to every criticism that came across my desk, there would be no time for constructive work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humphrey Bogart
The only thing you owe the audience is a good performance
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niccolo Machiavelli
There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things.
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post #887 of 1782 (permalink) Old 09-16-2012, 03:52 PM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (Murray one slam away from making l

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Originally Posted by thrust View Post
Laver's list is very unclear, IMO. Hoad seems to have been powerful enough for him to scare Gonzalez and Laver. For whatever reason, however, Lew seems to have been rather erratic. The fact is that from the US in 1956, Rosewall dominated their H-H. Whenever they played in a Pro final, about 6 times, Ken won. I think Lew's main problem was both mental and too much weight lifting training. Rosewall resisted Hopman's effort to have him follow that training regime and concentrated on running and endurance rather than power. IMO, that is why Ken was so consistant and played so well for as long as he did. Again there is no ONE GOAT. Certainly: Laver, Rosewall, Federer, Budge, Borg, Sampras, and Nadal would be in the top tier of all-time greats.
Nadal in the same tier as Federer?

you have to be joking?
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post #888 of 1782 (permalink) Old 09-16-2012, 03:56 PM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (Murray one slam away from making l

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No need to hate on Renshaw. Willie didn't only win Wimbledon, he won other major equivalent events back then, the Irish Championships, and so on. Renshaw fought through the draw to win it in 1881, defended in 1882, 1883, 1884, 1885, and 1886. If anything, it is tougher to defend only playing 1 match while the other fellow is hot and confident coming off multiple victories. The champ must stay sharp. In 1887, Renshaw could not defend, having picked up the tennis elbow. In 1888, he returned, losing in the QF. Then, in 1889, he was down 2-0 in sets in the All-Comers final, and 2-5 down in the 4th. He saved 6 match points and took it into a 5th, where he was down 0-5! Then he saves more match points, including one where he retrieved a ball behind the baseline, slipped and fell, on MP, and Barlow hit a drop shot. Renshaw recovers, tracks it down, and hits the winner, saves match point, goes on to win the match and beat his brother in the final to reclaim his crown. Even in 1890, a 29 year old past prime Renshaw was able to take the challenger to 5 sets before falling.

7 Wimbledons is 7 Wimbledons, regardless of era. And then you say, he'd get owned in 2012. Well, maybe Nadal and Djokovic would get owned in 1885. Besides, I'd think you'd jump at an opportunity to have a British champ in with the top tier. Renshaw does deserve it. The father of the big hitting, big serving game, truly the first GOAT in tennis history. Give him his due. He brought the crowds out and initiated the Renshaw Rush to the courts. I mean, how could the screaming girls resist such a man?
I wasn't comparing eras, I was just stating a point that he had to beat one player to win his Wimbledon titles. I wouldn't put him anywhere near the top for that. For all the pre-Open Era slating at least Budge, Perry and the others had to beat more guys.

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post #889 of 1782 (permalink) Old 09-16-2012, 04:13 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (Murray one slam away from making l

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Originally Posted by thrust View Post
Laver's list is very unclear, IMO. Hoad seems to have been powerful enough for him to scare Gonzalez and Laver. For whatever reason, however, Lew seems to have been rather erratic. The fact is that from the US in 1956, Rosewall dominated their H-H. Whenever they played in a Pro final, about 6 times, Ken won. I think Lew's main problem was both mental and too much weight lifting training. Rosewall resisted Hopman's effort to have him follow that training regime and concentrated on running and endurance rather than power. IMO, that is why Ken was so consistant and played so well for as long as he did. Again there is no ONE GOAT. Certainly: Laver, Rosewall, Federer, Budge, Borg, Sampras, and Nadal would be in the top tier of all-time greats.
I'd agree with this assessment. Hoad was a strong guy, but had back problems and retired before 30. Had he stayed healty, I think he could have gotten himself up into the higher tiers. He was also very erratic. Safin of his day, but more success. Could beat anyone and lose to anyone on any given day. Even Panho Gonzales himself said that Hoad was the one who pushed him the most, and this was peak/prime Gonzales.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Novak Djokovic
Obviously, you play a lot of mind games with yourself, but it is important to always believe that you can play your best, perform your best, and in the end, your convictions are stronger than your doubts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
If I took the time to respond to every criticism that came across my desk, there would be no time for constructive work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humphrey Bogart
The only thing you owe the audience is a good performance
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niccolo Machiavelli
There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things.
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post #890 of 1782 (permalink) Old 09-16-2012, 04:30 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (Murray one slam away from making l

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Originally Posted by atennisfan View Post
Nadal in the same tier as Federer?

you have to be joking?
No, not yet. Rafa needs another slam or 2 to get there. A return to #1 is unlikely, but would definitely enhance the old resume.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Novak Djokovic
Obviously, you play a lot of mind games with yourself, but it is important to always believe that you can play your best, perform your best, and in the end, your convictions are stronger than your doubts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
If I took the time to respond to every criticism that came across my desk, there would be no time for constructive work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humphrey Bogart
The only thing you owe the audience is a good performance
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niccolo Machiavelli
There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things.
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post #891 of 1782 (permalink) Old 09-17-2012, 11:32 AM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (Murray one slam away from making l

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As much as the ones you're arguing against are making assumptions, so are you. You don't know that Nole or Nadal would be shitty volleyers back then, primarily because they were never taught to focus on volleys as much as their baseline game. For all we know if they were brought up in the world of tennis seventy years ago they could have been serve and volley kings.

What we do know is that tennis back then required more feel and tennis today requires more athleticism, so let's just leave it at that.
I accept this, but what is not in doubt about Nadal & Djokovic is that they would have had to develop gamestyles very different from their current ones.

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post #892 of 1782 (permalink) Old 09-18-2012, 08:45 AM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (Murray one slam away from making l

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With wooden racquets? Using their current grips and stroke production, they would shank every other ball.

I find it really weird how so many on MTF are unable to grasp the simple point that radically different conditions require radically different skills. It wasn't possible to hit the ball consistently very hard with a wooden racquet. To win, you needed touch and court-craft and the ability to kill off points at the net. You did not need colossal upper-body strength because (Laver & Hoad aside) it wasn't possible to hit non-passing winners from the baseline with the technology at your disposal and you did not need to be able to run down would-be winners from the baseline because hardly anybody was able to hit them anyway. Of current top players, only Federer & Murray & conceivably Tsonga would have been able to flourish under those conditions. Of the players back then, Laver & Hoad would probably have adapted well to today's conditions because of their brilliant timing - Rosewall arguably not. But if that is a knock against Rosewall, it's a knock against Nadal & Djokovic that they would have struggled in the conditions Rosewall had to play in.
Very interesting read, I am with you on almost all accounts but I havent seen alot from Hoad to decide if he would adapt well in this era. I think you dont even have to go that far back, a player like Sampras would struggle in this era and would maybe not even be as succesfull with wooden raquets, he really was a product of his era. Mcenroe would have major problems without wooden raquets even in his peak, a player like Borg would probably be a monster in this era, much like Nadal but I dont think Nadal would be as good as Borg in his era, but I still think he would be a top player (he would be a monster on clay in any era), I really think many people underrate Nadal's talent to adapt to different circumstances.

This is all speculation ofcourse, Djokovic might be the current player who would struggle most with wooden raquets while I really cant see Rosewall doing anything special with modern raquets.

There are limits to how much a player can adapt to different circumstances, Sampras might have developped a good twohanded backhand and stayed back at the baseline in the 2000s it has been argued but I dont think he had the sets of base attributes (like speed and endurance) needed to outrally the likes of Djokovic and Rafa with modern raquets.

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post #893 of 1782 (permalink) Old 09-18-2012, 12:16 PM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (Murray one slam away from making l

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Very interesting read, I am with you on almost all accounts but I havent seen alot from Hoad to decide if he would adapt well in this era. I think you dont even have to go that far back, a player like Sampras would struggle in this era and would maybe not even be as succesfull with wooden raquets, he really was a product of his era. Mcenroe would have major problems without wooden raquets even in his peak, a player like Borg would probably be a monster in this era, much like Nadal but I dont think Nadal would be as good as Borg in his era, but I still think he would be a top player (he would be a monster on clay in any era), I really think many people underrate Nadal's talent to adapt to different circumstances.

This is all speculation ofcourse, Djokovic might be the current player who would struggle most with wooden raquets while I really cant see Rosewall doing anything special with modern raquets.

There are limits to how much a player can adapt to different circumstances, Sampras might have developped a good twohanded backhand and stayed back at the baseline in the 2000s it has been argued but I dont think he had the sets of base attributes (like speed and endurance) needed to outrally the likes of Djokovic and Rafa with modern raquets.
Agreed. In particular, that Nadal would have been great on clay in any era. Borg & Vilas showed that even with wooden racquets you could win on clay with consistent heavy topspin and superb retrieving. Nadal would have been nearly as good as Borg at this. He just wouldn't have been able to hit the ball as hard as he does now; he wouldn't be able to hit the winners he does now.

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post #894 of 1782 (permalink) Old 09-18-2012, 12:54 PM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (Murray one slam away from making l

Amazing list!!! One more slam for Nadal is enough to him surpass Borg???
Update is needed about Nole Grand Slam finals (9) and Roger titles (76).
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post #895 of 1782 (permalink) Old 09-18-2012, 12:59 PM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (Murray one slam away from making l

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Amazing list!!! One more slam for Nadal is enough to him surpass Borg???
Update is needed about Nole Grand Slam finals (9) and Roger titles (76).
So, 12 > 11 in Majors is enough to put him in front of all time great Borg? We will not look for other titles, just Majors

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post #896 of 1782 (permalink) Old 09-18-2012, 01:08 PM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (Murray one slam away from making l

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So, 12 > 11 in Majors is enough to put him in front of all time great Borg? We will not look for other titles, just Majors
It's not clear for me, I just think it can be discussed. Borg has more weeks as number 1 and 5 Wimbledon in a row, but has no hard court major. Nadal is the GOAT on clay and has a career grand slam.

PS; I'm not a Nadal fan
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post #897 of 1782 (permalink) Old 09-18-2012, 01:15 PM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (Murray one slam away from making l

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It's not clear for me, I just think it can be discussed. Borg has more weeks as number 1 and 5 Wimbledon in a row, but has no hard court major. Nadal is the GOAT on clay and has a career grand slam.

PS; I'm not a Nadal fan
Well, maybe we can look fo Indoor/Outdoor record

Borg's 3 Chanel Slams are among the greatest Open era achievements, with or without CGS or title in New York

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post #898 of 1782 (permalink) Old 09-18-2012, 01:18 PM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (Murray one slam away from making l

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Amazing list!!! One more slam for Nadal is enough to him surpass Borg???
Update is needed about Nole Grand Slam finals (9) and Roger titles (76).
Is you look at post #656 you can see that Mr. Groove would have moved Nadal ahead of Borg with a Wimbledon win this year. Presumably a win in another major will do as well.
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post #899 of 1782 (permalink) Old 09-18-2012, 01:25 PM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (Murray one slam away from making l

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Well, maybe we can look fo Indoor/Outdoor record

Borg's 3 Chanel Slams are among the greatest Open era achievements, with or without CGS or title in New York
Nadal has two. It's really hard to say who has more achievements today. I dont see a remarkable achievement from Borg to stay ahead Nadal. So, for me another major gives Nadal the number 8 in the list.
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post #900 of 1782 (permalink) Old 09-18-2012, 01:27 PM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (Murray one slam away from making l

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Is you look at post #656 you can see that Mr. Groove would have moved Nadal ahead of Borg with a Wimbledon win this year. Presumably a win in another major will do as well.
I didnt see this before post! Thanks Litotes.
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