Johnny Groove's Top 69 Players Ever (Djokovic #11 of all time, Wawrinka #56) - Page 3 - MensTennisForums.com
View Poll Results: How accurate was I?
5/5- Almost 100% spot on, Mr. Groove. I may switch a few around here or there, but good work 68 18.58%
4/5- More or less. I disagree with a few, but not bad at all 154 42.08%
3/5- Hmmmm, I dunno. Some look a bit dicey, mate 53 14.48%
2/5- Are you nuts? Why is X player in Y position? You are completely dissing Z player! 19 5.19%
1/5- Are you high and or drunk? WTF?!?!?! 72 19.67%
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post #31 of 1782 (permalink) Old 07-07-2011, 02:54 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

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Originally Posted by ArcadianA View Post
I agree that Nadal shouldn't be above Lendl quite yet, didn't the man ALSO win 5 end of year championships? He has also won many more career titles thus far... I mean much more than Nadal currently for people to try to excuse it as an era/physicality/whatever thing.

Personally I have no doubt that Nadal will eclipse Lendl at some point, but I don't reckon it's already happened.
Hmmm, well the question now becomes whether Nadal's two extra slams count for more than Lendl's year end championships and 170 weeks more as world #1? Hmmm. Maybe.

The top 8 is pretty clearly defined. Laver, Federer, Tilden, Rosewall, Gonzales, Sampras, Budge, and Borg in any order.

Then, the second tier from 9-13 consisting of Perry, Nadal, Lendl, Connors, and Vines are pretty close. I guess 14, 15, and 16 of Mac, Agassi, and Cochet you could throw in there too.

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post #32 of 1782 (permalink) Old 07-07-2011, 02:55 AM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

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Originally Posted by Johnny Groove View Post
Everyone's got their own opinions, of course. 10 slams including all 4 and 100+ weeks at #1 for Nadal puts him ahead of Lendl's 270 weeks at #1 and 8 slams but no Wimbledon.
I think one thing that helps Nadal is the number of weeks he spent at #2 in the world behind one of the players ranked ahead of him in your rankings. I don't think Lendl spent as many weeks at #2 behind someone ahead of him, which is a way minimizes the difference between 270 weeks at #1 and 100 weeks at #1. I could go either way on that one.

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post #33 of 1782 (permalink) Old 07-07-2011, 02:56 AM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

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In a few years Nadal might pass Lendl, but not now.
No, hes already passed him w/out a doubt considering everything he has done.
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post #34 of 1782 (permalink) Old 07-07-2011, 02:57 AM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

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Hmmm, well the question now becomes whether Nadal's two extra slams count for more than Lendl's year end championships and 170 weeks more as world #1? Hmmm. Maybe.

The top 8 is pretty clearly defined. Laver, Federer, Tilden, Rosewall, Gonzales, Sampras, Budge, and Borg in any order.

Then, the second tier from 9-13 consisting of Perry, Nadal, Lendl, Connors, and Vines are pretty close. I guess 14, 15, and 16 of Mac, Agassi, and Cochet you could throw in there too.
You could argue so, but I also added to my post:

'Also you say Lendl won 7 out of 12 masters finals, but I believe when the equivalent tournies were called something else previously he also won a load. If I recall, he has actually won around about 20 or more masters or master equivalent titles. This and all the end of year championships pushes him past Nadal currently, no?


Good thread btw. '

Those end of year champs are very big tournaments and deserve plenty of extra kudos. Nadal would surely love even 1 on his resume.
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post #35 of 1782 (permalink) Old 07-07-2011, 02:57 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

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Originally Posted by ArcadianA View Post
Also you say Lendl won 7 out of 12 masters finals, but I believe when the equivalent tournies were called something else previously he also won a load. If I recall, he has actually won around about 20 or more masters or master equivalent titles. This and all the end of year championships pushes him past Nadal currently, no?

Good thread btw.
I separated his year end titles and his Tennis Championship Series/Tennis Masters Series titles.

I think I am going to move Lendl ahead of Nadal, possibly Vines too. And move Perry back. Not sure about Connors.

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Professor Groove, you have Sampras at #6. Get ready for your thread to be pullulated with SetSampras's rants and SdG's explosion of ellipsis littered harangues.


Sampras at 6 is as high as I can rate him.

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Don't be like Fox News and practice selective history.

Agassi doing the Career Slam is a greater achievement than Fed or Nadal doing it, if you know why this is the case, then there is some hope.

In a few years Nadal might pass Lendl, but not now.
I guess there is some restructuring to do.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Novak Djokovic
Obviously, you play a lot of mind games with yourself, but it is important to always believe that you can play your best, perform your best, and in the end, your convictions are stronger than your doubts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
If I took the time to respond to every criticism that came across my desk, there would be no time for constructive work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humphrey Bogart
The only thing you owe the audience is a good performance
Quote:
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There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things.
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post #36 of 1782 (permalink) Old 07-07-2011, 02:58 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

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Originally Posted by Snowwy View Post
I think one thing that helps Nadal is the number of weeks he spent at #2 in the world behind one of the players ranked ahead of him in your rankings. I don't think Lendl spent as many weeks at #2 behind someone ahead of him, which is a way minimizes the difference between 270 weeks at #1 and 100 weeks at #1. I could go either way on that one.
Hmmm, well this is also true.

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No, hes already passed him w/out a doubt considering everything he has done.
I dunno about w/o a doubt.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Novak Djokovic
Obviously, you play a lot of mind games with yourself, but it is important to always believe that you can play your best, perform your best, and in the end, your convictions are stronger than your doubts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
If I took the time to respond to every criticism that came across my desk, there would be no time for constructive work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humphrey Bogart
The only thing you owe the audience is a good performance
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niccolo Machiavelli
There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things.
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post #37 of 1782 (permalink) Old 07-07-2011, 03:00 AM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

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No, hes already passed him w/out a doubt considering everything he has done.
He hasn't spent more weeks at #1, he isn't dominant on hardcourts or indoors like Lendl, who won around 20+ TMS events but they weren't called those in the day. How many TMC has Nadal won? Between mid 70s-80s these were considered better than the AO, until the Aus Open got its act together.

On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

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I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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post #38 of 1782 (permalink) Old 07-07-2011, 03:04 AM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

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I separated his year end titles and his Tennis Championship Series/Tennis Masters Series titles.

I think I am going to move Lendl ahead of Nadal, possibly Vines too. And move Perry back. Not sure about Connors.





Sampras at 6 is as high as I can rate him.



I guess there is some restructuring to do.

Ah right, I get it now.

Anyway, I don't think it's totally unreasonable you putting Nadal ahead of Lendl. Ultimately it's your call and other people may enter the fray with arguments for and against Lendl being ahead of Nadal. I'm presuming your aim is to come up with a sort of definitive list from well rounded collaborative agreements and criticisms that will come - constructively one hopes - throughout this thread.
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post #39 of 1782 (permalink) Old 07-07-2011, 03:04 AM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

Had the courts been this slow in the 80s Lendl would have ruled Wimbledon for years.

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post #40 of 1782 (permalink) Old 07-07-2011, 03:05 AM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

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I dunno about w/o a doubt.
As I was saying clearly its very subjective talking about the best players ever. Slams, weeks #1, record against top players,level of competition, big titles like master series and WTF's, davis cup. So much goes into it. With those two its pretty clear though, imo.
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post #41 of 1782 (permalink) Old 07-07-2011, 03:05 AM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

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I guess there is some restructuring to do.
The idea and structure are fine, just not convinced of all the findings. I'll put it like this Lendl actually played on very fast surfaces with a quick ball, this is something Nadal hasn't done. This can't be measured numerically, but impacted on their results.

It's the great what if and they suck. Lendl on this grass would win Wimbledon multiple times and Nadal playing on very fast and low bounce grass wouldn't. However since they are products of their particular environments, got to take it within their own sphere.

Hence why Agassi (and you know how much I hate the prick) his career Slam is a greater achievement as there were much bigger differences between the conditions than currently.

On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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post #42 of 1782 (permalink) Old 07-07-2011, 03:07 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

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He hasn't spent more weeks at #1, he isn't dominant on hardcourts or indoors like Lendl, who won around 20+ TMS events but they weren't called those in the day. How many TMC has Nadal won? Between mid 70s-80s these were considered better than the AO, until the Aus Open got its act together.
Yes, I have made some changes.

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Originally Posted by ArcadianA View Post
Ah right, I get it now.

Anyway, I don't think it's totally unreasonable you putting Nadal ahead of Lendl. Ultimately it's your call and other people may enter the fray with arguments for and against Lendl being ahead of Nadal. I'm presuming your aim is to come up with a sort of definitive list from well rounded collaborative agreements and criticisms that will come - constructively one hopes - throughout this thread.
Yep. My first list is my own opinion, and I am very open to changing and listening to other opinions. I know I don't know everything

I have moved Lendl from 11 to 9, Vines from 13 to 10, Nadal from 10 to 11, Perry from 9 to 12, and Connors from 12 to 13.

Funny how one match can change it all. What if Nadal had won that Wimbledon vs. Djokovic? He'd have 11 slams, be #9 for sure, and be knocking on the door of Borg at #8.

Or if Lendl had won one of those Wimbledon finals, he might be knocking on Borg's door too.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Novak Djokovic
Obviously, you play a lot of mind games with yourself, but it is important to always believe that you can play your best, perform your best, and in the end, your convictions are stronger than your doubts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
If I took the time to respond to every criticism that came across my desk, there would be no time for constructive work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humphrey Bogart
The only thing you owe the audience is a good performance
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niccolo Machiavelli
There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things.
Johnny Groove is online now  
post #43 of 1782 (permalink) Old 07-07-2011, 03:10 AM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

Good to see some constructive debate in here, wonders how long it will last.

On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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post #44 of 1782 (permalink) Old 07-07-2011, 03:12 AM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

you need to go lower nadal and put it on a blog dude...

then f**king get off the computer and go hit some... ffs

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post #45 of 1782 (permalink) Old 07-07-2011, 03:13 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

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Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
Had the courts been this slow in the 80s Lendl would have ruled Wimbledon for years.
I don't think the speed of the court hurt Lendl at Wimbledon so much as the bad bounces.

I don't know if Lendl playing in this era would win a Wimbledon vs. Fed/Nadal/Djokovic. Then again, if the courts were slower in the 80's, guys like Becker/Edberg/Connors/McEnroe would surely have played differently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guga2120 View Post
As I was saying clearly its very subjective talking about the best players ever. Slams, weeks #1, record against top players,level of competition, big titles like master series and WTF's, davis cup. So much goes into it. With those two its pretty clear though, imo.
Not really. Nadal has 2 more slams and the career slam, sure, but Lendl leads in every other category.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Action Jackson View Post
The idea and structure are fine, just not convinced of all the findings. I'll put it like this Lendl actually played on very fast surfaces with a quick ball, this is something Nadal hasn't done. This can't be measured numerically, but impacted on their results.

It's the great what if and they suck. Lendl on this grass would win Wimbledon multiple times and Nadal playing on very fast and low bounce grass wouldn't. However since they are products of their particular environments, got to take it within their own sphere.

Hence why Agassi (and you know how much I hate the prick) his career Slam is a greater achievement as there were much bigger differences between the conditions than currently.
Yes of course I am aware of the surface homogenization. I also know that if the courts in the 80's were as they were today, the top guys of that time would all play differently. Would Lendl have won Wimbledon in that scenario? Who knows.

Would you rate Agassi higher than 14?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Novak Djokovic
Obviously, you play a lot of mind games with yourself, but it is important to always believe that you can play your best, perform your best, and in the end, your convictions are stronger than your doubts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
If I took the time to respond to every criticism that came across my desk, there would be no time for constructive work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humphrey Bogart
The only thing you owe the audience is a good performance
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niccolo Machiavelli
There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things.
Johnny Groove is online now  
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