Johnny Groove's Top 69 Players Ever (Djokovic #11 of all time, Wawrinka #56) - Page 22 - MensTennisForums.com

View Poll Results: How accurate was I?
5/5- Almost 100% spot on, Mr. Groove. I may switch a few around here or there, but good work 68 18.43%
4/5- More or less. I disagree with a few, but not bad at all 154 41.73%
3/5- Hmmmm, I dunno. Some look a bit dicey, mate 53 14.36%
2/5- Are you nuts? Why is X player in Y position? You are completely dissing Z player! 19 5.15%
1/5- Are you high and or drunk? WTF?!?!?! 75 20.33%
Voters: 369. You may not vote on this poll

 
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post #316 of 1787 (permalink) Old 12-26-2011, 07:49 PM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (Djokovic up to #31)

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Originally Posted by Shinoj View Post
Groove Depp your List is well reasearched and Kudos for that

But

WTF are Rosewall,Tilden and Pacho Gonzales doing so much higher in that list.

They would really be Guinea Pigs for the Likes of Becker,Sampras,Agassi,Edberg,Nadal even Djokovic.

The only one to consider from that Era would be Laver who is really a GOAT contender along with Federer.
But Rosewall that much higher. I have seen his videos and he is Just About good.. Certainly not that much higher. That Era wasnt strong you have to consider that. tennis was just about evolving .
This is why such lists are truly impossible to perfectly come up with and are highly subjective. The game is totally different now than it was 40 years ago. Every decade that has gone by, talent means less and less. It has become more about cutting errors, having enough strength to be able to hit past your opponent and being physically talented. In a sense, it is a totally different game. You wouldn't see someone like Nadal in the 60s, nor would you see someone like Laver in the 2000s. So the only fair way to analyze these things are to compare each player to their own era rather than other eras and that is even a tough task as people can erroneously make meaningless stats/facts appear meaningful to blemish or improve a career. I mean even comparing 2000s and 1990s is tough enough, let alone 2000s vs the 60s, but I think this list is adequate for the most part.

Federer / Haas / Safin / Gaudio / Kuerten / Youzhny / Nadal / Gonzalez / Ljubicic / Hewitt / Soderling / Wawrinka / Coria / Nalbandian / Kohlschreiber
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post #317 of 1787 (permalink) Old 12-26-2011, 07:58 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (Djokovic up to #31)

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Originally Posted by HKz View Post
Still a stretch despite how talented Laver was.. A 5'8" player being able to do damage in today's game is highly unlikely. Ferrer is 5'9" and he has had barely moderate slam success. Sure, obviously Laver is a different class and certainly loads more talented, however, the game has certainly evolved to the point where physical talent is much more important than tennis talent. I wouldn't be so certain that Laver would be able to compete in this physical era.
You mentioned Ferrer. He's barely an inch taller than Laver and he's top 5 in the world. Laver was a beast physically in his time, did you see his left arm?

http://scienceofcoachingsquash.files...r-left-arm.jpg

He'd be top 10 at least in any era.

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you should edit post with Fed's achievements
Will do.

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Originally Posted by Shinoj View Post
Groove Depp your List is well reasearched and Kudos for that

But

WTF are Rosewall,Tilden and Pacho Gonzales doing so much higher in that list.

They would really be Guinea Pigs for the Likes of Becker,Sampras,Agassi,Edberg,Nadal even Djokovic.

The only one to consider from that Era would be Laver who is really a GOAT contender along with Federer.
But Rosewall that much higher. I have seen his videos and he is Just About good.. Certainly not that much higher. That Era wasnt strong you have to consider that. tennis was just about evolving .
Tough to judge that way, I tried to be as most statistical about the list as possible.

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The Federer details need updating in terms of year end events and master series titles.
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post #318 of 1787 (permalink) Old 12-26-2011, 08:03 PM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (Djokovic up to #31)

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Originally Posted by Groove Dude View Post
You mentioned Ferrer. He's barely an inch taller than Laver and he's top 5 in the world. Laver was a beast physically in his time, did you see his left arm?

http://scienceofcoachingsquash.files...r-left-arm.jpg

He'd be top 10 at least in any era.
You've exactly proven my point.. Ferrer hasn't done anything notable at the slams. You really think Laver would be truly be able to replicate his Grand Slam success of the 60s in today's game where the surfaces are slower, points are typically longer and played from the baseline and coming into the net is nowhere near as effective?

Forget Rod's left arm. In today's game, you need that muscle strength everywhere. Ferrer is rather an anomaly in today's game in many ways, however, you can see how built he is for his height.



Just look at my tennis height statistic of the 2000s thread (Tennis Height Statistics of This Decade) and you'll see how height has changed dramatically. I haven't updated it for the last couple years, but it certainly hasn't changed. Even if you dug back into the 90s, 80s, 70s, you'll see how it has slowly become a taller man's game.

Rod's forearm is nowhere near special anyways in today's game. Just ask Andreev to show you his.

Federer / Haas / Safin / Gaudio / Kuerten / Youzhny / Nadal / Gonzalez / Ljubicic / Hewitt / Soderling / Wawrinka / Coria / Nalbandian / Kohlschreiber

Last edited by HKz; 12-26-2011 at 08:28 PM.
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post #319 of 1787 (permalink) Old 12-26-2011, 08:08 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (Djokovic up to #31)

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You've exactly proven my point.. Ferrer hasn't done anything notable at the slams. You really think Laver would be truly be able to replicate his Grand Slam success of the 60s in today's game where the surfaces are slower, points are typically longer and coming into the net is nowhere near as effective?

Forget Rod's left arm. In today's game, you need that muscle strength everywhere. Ferrer is rather an anomaly in today's game in many ways, however, you can see how built he is for his height.
Ah, but it is you who has proven my point.

Of course I don't believe Laver would replicate his 60's success in this era. CYGS left and right? No way. But he'd be a top 5 staple for years, have a couple years at #1, and win double digit slams, yes. Height wouldn't matter.

As for Rod's left arm, it is a symbol of how built he was in his era, and if he was raised in this era, he'd be just as built as Ferrer, if not more so.

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post #320 of 1787 (permalink) Old 12-26-2011, 08:19 PM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (Djokovic up to #31)

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Ah, but it is you who has proven my point.

Of course I don't believe Laver would replicate his 60's success in this era. CYGS left and right? No way. But he'd be a top 5 staple for years, have a couple years at #1, and win double digit slams, yes. Height wouldn't matter.

As for Rod's left arm, it is a symbol of how built he was in his era, and if he was raised in this era, he'd be just as built as Ferrer, if not more so.
Still completely doubtful. Top 10 yes, double digit slams no, a couple of slams maybe.

Federer / Haas / Safin / Gaudio / Kuerten / Youzhny / Nadal / Gonzalez / Ljubicic / Hewitt / Soderling / Wawrinka / Coria / Nalbandian / Kohlschreiber
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post #321 of 1787 (permalink) Old 12-26-2011, 08:45 PM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (Djokovic up to #31)

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You've exactly proven my point.. Ferrer hasn't done anything notable at the slams. You really think Laver would be truly be able to replicate his Grand Slam success of the 60s in today's game where the surfaces are slower, points are typically longer and played from the baseline and coming into the net is nowhere near as effective?

Forget Rod's left arm. In today's game, you need that muscle strength everywhere. Ferrer is rather an anomaly in today's game in many ways, however, you can see how built he is for his height.



Just look at my tennis height statistic of the 2000s thread (Tennis Height Statistics of This Decade) and you'll see how height has changed dramatically. I haven't updated it for the last couple years, but it certainly hasn't changed. Even if you dug back into the 90s, 80s, 70s, you'll see how it has slowly become a taller man's game.

Rod's forearm is nowhere near special anyways in today's game. Just ask Andreev to show you his.

Ferrer is on juice in this pic 100%
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post #322 of 1787 (permalink) Old 12-26-2011, 08:47 PM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (Djokovic up to #31)

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Originally Posted by Shinoj View Post
Groove Depp your List is well reasearched and Kudos for that

But

WTF are Rosewall,Tilden and Pacho Gonzales doing so much higher in that list.

They would really be Guinea Pigs for the Likes of Becker,Sampras,Agassi,Edberg,Nadal even Djokovic.

The only one to consider from that Era would be Laver who is really a GOAT contender along with Federer.
But Rosewall that much higher. I have seen his videos and he is Just About good.. Certainly not that much higher. That Era wasnt strong you have to consider that. tennis was just about evolving .
Due to equipment, court speeds etc. one cannot definitely say how Rosewall, Laver and Gonzales would do if ther were playing today. Players can only be judged by their ACCOMPLISHMENTS in the era they competed in. Therefore Laver, Rosewall and Gonzales deserve their high ranking on Mr Groves list.

Last edited by thrust; 12-26-2011 at 08:52 PM.
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post #323 of 1787 (permalink) Old 12-26-2011, 09:21 PM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (Djokovic up to #31)

Fed has 18 masters 1000 titles from 30 finals

La Undécima
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post #324 of 1787 (permalink) Old 12-26-2011, 10:11 PM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (Djokovic up to #31)

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WTF are Rosewall,Tilden and Pacho Gonzales doing so much higher in that list.

They would really be Guinea Pigs for the Likes of Becker,Sampras,Agassi,Edberg,Nadal even Djokovic.
I disagree sir.

The biggest fact in this thread is that it's almost impossible to compare different eras. And you can't imagine those players playing the same way if they played today. Of course more or less with the same style, but with a more professional approach.

And almost during any era there's always been 4-6 really strong players. Maybe the quality of the challengers have varied.

That being said, Tilden would have been so dangerous with his booming serve on a fast grass court. Obviously he would have also been very dangerous in the locker room. I bet Rafa wouldn't pick his ass so much with Bill around.
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post #325 of 1787 (permalink) Old 12-27-2011, 04:04 AM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (Djokovic up to #31)

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Originally Posted by Groove Dude View Post

Again, I think if Fed was born in that era, and grew up w/ wooden racquets, he'd be top 10 at least in the 60's. I am of the opinion that champions are champions in any era.

I am also of this opinion.

"I think that now and until the end of my career, I can really play with my mind at peace, and no longer hear that I've never won Roland Garros." - Roger Federer
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post #326 of 1787 (permalink) Old 12-27-2011, 05:25 AM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (Djokovic up to #31)

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Originally Posted by HKz View Post
This is why such lists are truly impossible to perfectly come up with and are highly subjective. The game is totally different now than it was 40 years ago. Every decade that has gone by, talent means less and less. It has become more about cutting errors, having enough strength to be able to hit past your opponent and being physically talented. In a sense, it is a totally different game. You wouldn't see someone like Nadal in the 60s, nor would you see someone like Laver in the 2000s. So the only fair way to analyze these things are to compare each player to their own era rather than other eras and that is even a tough task as people can erroneously make meaningless stats/facts appear meaningful to blemish or improve a career. I mean even comparing 2000s and 1990s is tough enough, let alone 2000s vs the 60s, but I think this list is adequate for the most part.
You have to bear in mind that your judgment about less talent and more physical aspect would hold true only in these homogenized courts. Speed up the court little like what happened at the O2 courts you would see some completely different results; likes of Djokovic and Nadal getting bundled out; others would argue that Nadal and Djokovic were tired; but i am not entirely convinced about it.


I very much agree with Laver on the list at # 1 and at worst #2 because he was quite ahead of the time they were playing.

Apart from all the talents that he had you could see that he had a champions mentality and that means he would be very successful in most of the eras. Its not easy competing at the Age of 38 at the very Top level and giving them a run for their money. From one of the videos posted in one of the thread, he was playing Bjorn Borg who was aged just 18 and Laver was 36 and he drove Borg to a 4th or a 5th Set. You could see that he was something special.

I have no doubt that he would not be less than 5 in todays Era. If you take in account of such factors like being a better physical built, having Modern Equipments and a better tactical awareness about the game. I am sure it would be between Federer and Laver with Nadal dominating on Clay. But overall it would be between Laver and Federer. I have no doubt about it.

Have a problem with likes of Rosewall,Tilden and co. I can only speak for Rosewall as i had seen only his video. And i could see that he played at a Pace which was appropriate for that time. he used to meander at the court; but that was enough for that Era. Had a half baked forehand and backhand. Thats why i said those guys were very good but only for that time but Laver was a step or two ahead of them.
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post #327 of 1787 (permalink) Old 12-27-2011, 08:28 AM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (Djokovic up to #31)

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I disagree sir.

The biggest fact in this thread is that it's almost impossible to compare different eras. And you can't imagine those players playing the same way if they played today. Of course more or less with the same style, but with a more professional approach.

And almost during any era there's always been 4-6 really strong players. Maybe the quality of the challengers have varied.

That being said, Tilden would have been so dangerous with his booming serve on a fast grass court. Obviously he would have also been very dangerous in the locker room. I bet Rafa wouldn't pick his ass so much with Bill around.
It is somewhat possible just by looking at the Youtube videos.

Just look at some of the videos of Rosewall. I am all for little bit grace on court but playing almost entirely relying on grace is something which i cant understand.Those Nicely combed hair and pleasantries of extended dramatics after losing the point; they wont work anymore in todays game.

In fact i would go ahead and say Jo Wilfred Tsonga would eat alive Ken Rosewall on all surfaces if you account for surfaces,equipments and all other relevant factors.

They should be really down on that list. ideally should be after 20 or 30s.All of them Rosewall,Pacho Gonzales,and who not.There is a reason Connors Bagelled Rosewall badly at the Wimbeldon 74. It got over before anybody knew.
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post #328 of 1787 (permalink) Old 12-27-2011, 08:33 AM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (Djokovic up to #31)

Please stop bumping this atrocity of a list.

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post #329 of 1787 (permalink) Old 12-27-2011, 10:16 AM
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (Djokovic up to #31)

I think this is a great list.

Thanks for all the hard work, groovy dude!
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post #330 of 1787 (permalink) Old 12-27-2011, 03:27 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (Djokovic up to #31)

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Originally Posted by Shinoj View Post
It is somewhat possible just by looking at the Youtube videos.

Just look at some of the videos of Rosewall. I am all for little bit grace on court but playing almost entirely relying on grace is something which i cant understand.Those Nicely combed hair and pleasantries of extended dramatics after losing the point; they wont work anymore in todays game.

In fact i would go ahead and say Jo Wilfred Tsonga would eat alive Ken Rosewall on all surfaces if you account for surfaces,equipments and all other relevant factors.

They should be really down on that list. ideally should be after 20 or 30s.All of them Rosewall,Pacho Gonzales,and who not.There is a reason Connors Bagelled Rosewall badly at the Wimbeldon 74. It got over before anybody knew.
Rosewall's career was basically top 10 in the world for 20 years. Just cause he got crushed by peak Connors in 74 doesn't mean he'd get eaten alive by Tsonga. The fact that Rosewall even made 2 slam finals in his late 30's speaks to how good he really was.

In a fictional match vs. Tsonga, Rosewall would frustrate the shit outta the Frenchman with slices, net rushing, and other tactical plays. It would go late into a 4th or 5th set, a Tsonga-Rosewall match.

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Please stop bumping this atrocity of a list.
What exactly is the atrocity of this list?

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I think this is a great list.

Thanks for all the hard work, groovy dude!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod Laver
We all choke. That’s all right. We’re not machines. What you have to learn is to accept that fact and not panic. It’s the panic that loses the matches, not the nerves.
Quote:
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