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post #1 of 83 (permalink) Old 09-13-2017, 08:43 AM Thread Starter
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If Federer...

Let's assume for a while that it was Federer not Nadal who won 2017 US Open beating exactly the same players: Lajovic - Daniel - Mayer - Dolgopolov - Rublev - De Potro (sick and exhausted) - Anderson.

I, as a Federer fan, would say: OK, it counts, it was not Fed's fault but frankly speaking I have to admit it was the most undeserved slam ever and the biggest fluke in the history of the game... I'm not even sure if I would be happy with it

What would you think and say?

I'm specially interested in Federer and Nadal fans opinions but all are welcome.

Federer - Thiem - Wawrinka - Del Potro - Dimitrov - Shapovalov
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post #2 of 83 (permalink) Old 09-13-2017, 08:45 AM
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Federer beating Nadal in the process would've done the trick

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post #3 of 83 (permalink) Old 09-13-2017, 08:52 AM
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Re: If Federer...

I know Rafa got a very easy draw. You could say he vultured it, and really, I would have been fuming if Fraud won it with the same draw.
But the thing is, I feel like Rafa deserved to get an easy one, as he never had cakewalks.

Here's an interesting article on the topic (path ease). Somebody posted it in another thread, can't remember who though.

Quantifying Cakewalks, or The Time Rafa Finally Got Lucky ? Heavy Topspin
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Nadal is a billion times better than god.
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post #4 of 83 (permalink) Old 09-13-2017, 09:13 AM
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Re: If Federer...

I'd say the topic has been discussed ad nauseam and we should give it a rest. Whenever someone mentions "undeserved", the only question that pops in my mind is "Who deserved it more?" and it's really all you need to know about this. Entire 2017 is vultured in a way, because the field is crippled, so two veterans, instead of choosing retirement homes, are sweeping it. But the shame is not on them. They actually stepped up to the plate and took advantage of the opportunities, while others, those who were supposed to make things "right" in the first place, failed at doing so.

Was this the most memorable, epic and satisfying slam in the history? Hell, no. It's pretty low on the ladder for all the obvious reasons. But that has nothing to do with being deserved or not. The best player of the tournament won and that's it.

“Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't.” - Mark Twain
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post #5 of 83 (permalink) Old 09-13-2017, 09:23 AM
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Re: If Federer...

It's not undeserved, he beat the players he could beat and was the best player in the tournament. Easily achieved is maybe a better term.

Fluke is even worse, the guy is a 16 time slam champion for crying out loud. He didn't fluke all the other 15.
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post #6 of 83 (permalink) Old 09-13-2017, 09:24 AM
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Re: If Federer...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrej View Post
Here's an interesting article on the topic (path ease). Somebody posted it in another thread, can't remember who though.

Quantifying Cakewalks, or The Time Rafa Finally Got Lucky ? Heavy Topspin
That's an interesting way to look at it, but ELO rating is really debatable in physical sports context. It doesn't account for form, surface, fatigue, injuries etc...

“Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't.” - Mark Twain
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post #7 of 83 (permalink) Old 09-13-2017, 09:28 AM Thread Starter
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Re: If Federer...

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Originally Posted by Monsi View Post
I'd say the topic has been discussed ad nauseam and we should give it a rest. Whenever someone mentions "undeserved", the only question that pops in my mind is "Who deserved it more?" and it's really all you need to know about this. Entire 2017 is vultured in a way, because the field is crippled, so two veterans, instead of choosing retirement homes, are sweeping it. But the shame is not on them. They actually stepped up to the plate and took advantage of the opportunities, while others, those who were supposed to make things "right" in the first place, failed at doing so.

Was this the most memorable, epic and satisfying slam in the history? Hell, no. It's pretty low on the ladder for all the obvious reasons. But that has nothing to do with being deserved or not. The best player of the tournament won and that's it.
You really think so, Monsi? Can't believe...

Federer - Thiem - Wawrinka - Del Potro - Dimitrov - Shapovalov
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post #8 of 83 (permalink) Old 09-13-2017, 09:30 AM Thread Starter
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Re: If Federer...

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It's not undeserved, he beat the players he could beat and was the best player in the tournament. Easily achieved is maybe a better term.

Fluke is even worse, the guy is a 16 time slam champion for crying out loud. He didn't fluke all the other 15.
You put it more gently, but that's OK I think.

Federer - Thiem - Wawrinka - Del Potro - Dimitrov - Shapovalov
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post #9 of 83 (permalink) Old 09-13-2017, 09:31 AM
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Re: If Federer...

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Originally Posted by guitarra View Post
Let's assume for a while that it was Federer not Nadal who won 2017 US Open beating exactly the same players: Lajovic - Daniel - Mayer - Dolgopolov - Rublev - De Potro (sick and exhausted) - Anderson.

I, as a Federer fan, would say: OK, it counts, it was not Fed's fault but frankly speaking I have to admit it was the most undeserved slam ever and the biggest fluke in the history of the game... I'm not even sure if I would be happy with it

What would you think and say?

I'm specially interested in Federer and Nadal fans opinions but all are welcome.
He basically done this before - French Open 2009. Thats why they call him vulturer.
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post #10 of 83 (permalink) Old 09-13-2017, 09:38 AM
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Re: If Federer...

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Originally Posted by guitarra View Post
You really think so, Monsi? Can't believe...
Why wouldn't I think so? Even Federer himself thinks so. Trust me, I am ecstatic that he won 2 slams this year. Would've been even more ecstatic, had he won 3. But you must acknowledge the truth: both Nadal and Federer got help from the dire state of the field (partially seasonal, partially chronic). They are both well past their peak and yet nobody in the absence of Djokorray was able to push them aside. That's just not particularly flattering to the tour as a whole.
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post #11 of 83 (permalink) Old 09-13-2017, 10:02 AM
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Re: If Federer...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsi View Post
I'd say the topic has been discussed ad nauseam and we should give it a rest. Whenever someone mentions "undeserved", the only question that pops in my mind is "Who deserved it more?" and it's really all you need to know about this. Entire 2017 is vultured in a way, because the field is crippled, so two veterans, instead of choosing retirement homes, are sweeping it. But the shame is not on them. They actually stepped up to the plate and took advantage of the opportunities, while others, those who were supposed to make things "right" in the first place, failed at doing so.

Was this the most memorable, epic and satisfying slam in the history? Hell, no. It's pretty low on the ladder for all the obvious reasons. But that has nothing to do with being deserved or not. The best player of the tournament won and that's it.
Eastbourne wasn't vultured
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post #12 of 83 (permalink) Old 09-13-2017, 10:17 AM
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Re: If Federer...

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Originally Posted by Andrej View Post
I know Rafa got a very easy draw. You could say he vultured it, and really, I would have been fuming if Fraud won it with the same draw.
But the thing is, I feel like Rafa deserved to get an easy one, as he never had cakewalks.

Here's an interesting article on the topic (path ease). Somebody posted it in another thread, can't remember who though.

Quantifying Cakewalks, or The Time Rafa Finally Got Lucky ? Heavy Topspin
What are you talking about, almost all of his French Open titles prior to Djokovic becoming a force on Clay have been cakewalk draws, almost no clay court specialists and easy players to beat, as good as Rafa is on clay, he had a pretty poor competition on Clay then, unless you count Federer hard opposition on Clay which is his worst surface and was a good matchup for Nadal on Clay.

US open 2010 cakewalk draw and exhausted Djokovic in the final, can you say that was a hard draw?

Honestly people focus too much on rankings, someone in form can be a much dangerous opponent than someone who is a higher rank but out of form, Nadal faced unranked players before who were dangerous and in form, he also faced very high and top 10 players who were out of form, how do you define whats the easiest match?
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post #13 of 83 (permalink) Old 09-13-2017, 10:25 AM
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Re: If Federer...

It wouldn´t be the best slam to be proud of him but I would not call it fluke, I actually think Nadal´s AO final was more of a fluke than his USO title this year

Federer - Thiem - Zverev - Del Potro - Kyrgios
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post #14 of 83 (permalink) Old 09-13-2017, 10:49 AM
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Re: If Federer...

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Originally Posted by FiReFTW View Post
What are you talking about, almost all of his French Open titles prior to Djokovic becoming a force on Clay have been cakewalk draws, almost no clay court specialists and easy players to beat, as good as Rafa is on clay, he had a pretty poor competition on Clay then, unless you count Federer hard opposition on Clay which is his worst surface and was a good matchup for Nadal on Clay.

US open 2010 cakewalk draw and exhausted Djokovic in the final, can you say that was a hard draw?

Honestly people focus too much on rankings, someone in form can be a much dangerous opponent than someone who is a higher rank but out of form, Nadal faced unranked players before who were dangerous and in form, he also faced very high and top 10 players who were out of form, how do you define whats the easiest match?
He beat at least one of Fraud/Djok in 8/10 RGs. Clay might not be their best surface, but they're ATGs and are good on all surfaces. They are the 3rd and 2nd best claycourters of the last 15 years. For example, Coria is considered a very talented claycourter, yet he was 0-2 vs Fraud on the dirt.
His draws until the final at USO 10 and USO 13 weren't particulaty difficult, but he still had to beat Djokovic who was #3 in 2010 and #1 in 2013 and his most difficult matchup on hardcourts. And I don't think Djok was tired, those 5 setters were not particulary long, not to mention the final was postponed a day because of rain.
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Originally Posted by trumpfire View Post
Seeing this gif is the greatest moment of my life.
Nadal is a billion times better than god.
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post #15 of 83 (permalink) Old 09-13-2017, 10:58 AM
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Nadal has been vulturing slams since 2005.All his non-clay slams are a result of cakewalk draws and Federer not being clutch,and his clay slams because there are no clay court specialists
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