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Records when winning despite losing the same or more points than their rival

8K views 72 replies 29 participants last post by  blaziken 
#1 · (Edited)
And viceversa for selected players...


Notes:
Current top20 in colour.
Retirements at any point of the match not included
Stats from Tennis Abstract. There might be a few errors but overall they look correct.

Big 4 detail:
Code:
[B]NADAL LOSSES	[/B]				
	Date	                Tournament		                            Score	             TPW
1	8‑Aug‑2011	Canada Masters	Ivan Dodig [CRO] d. (2)Nadal	1-6 7-6(5) 7-6(5)	52.5%
2	12‑Mar‑2015	Indian Wells Masters	(6)Milos Raonic [CAN] d. (3)Nadal	4-6 7-6(10) 7-5	52.3%
3	6‑Mar‑2014	Indian Wells Masters	(28)Alexandr Dolgopolov [UKR] d. (1)Nadal	6-3 3-6 7-6(5)	51.9%
4	21‑Apr‑2014	Barcelona	(6)Nicolas Almagro [ESP] d. (1)Nadal	2-6 7-6(5) 6-4	51.9%
5	4‑Jan‑2010	Doha	(3)Nikolay Davydenko [RUS] d. (2)Nadal	0-6 7-6(8) 6-4	51.6%
6	11‑Mar‑2010	Indian Wells Masters	(20)Ivan Ljubicic [CRO] d. (3)Nadal	3-6 6-4 7-6(1)	51.6%
7	27‑Sep‑2010	Bangkok	Guillermo Garcia Lopez [ESP] d. (1)Nadal	2-6 7-6(3) 6-3	51.1%
8	11‑Oct‑2015	Shanghai Masters	(16)Jo Wilfried Tsonga [FRA] d. (8)Nadal	6-4 0-6 7-5	50.8%
9	12‑Oct‑2008	Madrid Masters	Gilles Simon [FRA] d. (1)Nadal	3-6 7-5 7-6(6)	50.6%
10	8‑Aug‑2016	Olympics	Juan Martin Del Potro [ARG] d. (3)Nadal	5-7 6-4 7-6(5)	50.5%
11	25‑Mar‑2009	Miami Masters	(6)Juan Martin Del Potro [ARG] d. (1)Nadal	6-4 3-6 7-6(3)	50.5%
12	16‑Aug‑2015	Cincinnati Masters	Feliciano Lopez [ESP] d. (8)Nadal	5-7 6-4 7-6(3)	50.3%
13	29‑Aug‑2016	US Open	(24)Lucas Pouille [FRA] d. (4)Nadal	6-1 2-6 6-4 3-6 7-6(6)	50.0%
					
[B]NADAL WINS	[/B]				
1	4‑Jan‑2016	Doha	(2)Nadal d. Andrey Kuznetsov [RUS]	6-3 5-7 6-4	50.0%
2	12‑Apr‑2004	Estoril	Nadal d. Richard Gasquet [FRA]	6-4 3-6 6-2	50.0%
3	5‑Oct‑2009	Beijing	(1)Nadal d. (WC)Marcos Baghdatis [CYP]	6-4 3-6 6-4	50.0%
4	14‑Apr‑2013	Monte Carlo Masters	(3)Nadal d. Grigor Dimitrov [BUL]	6-2 2-6 6-4	50.0%
5	4‑Nov‑2013	Tour Finals	(1)Nadal d. (5)Tomas Berdych [CZE]	6-4 1-6 6-3	50.0%
6	19‑Jan‑2009	Australian Open	(1)Nadal d. (2)Roger Federer [SUI]	7-5 3-6 7-6(3) 3-6 6-2	49.9%
7	9‑Jun‑2008	Queen's Club	(1)Nadal d. (8)Ivo Karlovic [CRO]	6-7(5) 7-6(5) 7-6(4)	49.8%
8	25‑Jun‑2007	Wimbledon	(2)Nadal d. (28)Robin Soderling [SWE]	6-4 6-4 6-7(7) 4-6 7-5	49.7%
9	17‑Feb‑2014	Rio de Janeiro	(1)Nadal d. (8)Pablo Andujar [ESP]	2-6 6-3 7-6(10)	49.5%
10	8‑May‑2006	Rome Masters	(2)Nadal d. (1)Roger Federer [SUI]	6-7(0) 7-6(5) 6-4 2-6 7-6(5)	49.3%
11	12‑May‑2013	Rome Masters	(5)Nadal d. (Q)Ernests Gulbis [LAT]	1-6 7-5 6-4	49.2%
12	4‑Nov‑2013	Tour Finals	(1)Nadal d. (7)Stanislas Wawrinka [SUI]	7-6(5) 7-6(6)	49.1%
13	10‑May‑2009	Madrid Masters	(1)Nadal d. (3)Novak Djokovic [SRB]	3-6 7-6(5) 7-6(9)	49.0%
14	14‑Aug‑2011	Cincinnati Masters	(2)Nadal d. Fernando Verdasco [ESP]	7-6(5) 6-7(4) 7-6(9)	49.0%
15	21‑Nov‑2010	Tour Finals	Nadal d. Andy Murray [GBR]	7-6(5) 3-6 7-6(6)	48.9%
16	3‑Jan‑2011	Doha	(1)Nadal d. Lukas Lacko [SVK]	7-6(3) 0-6 6-3	48.9%
17	11‑Aug‑2008	Beijing Olympics	(2)Nadal d. (3)Novak Djokovic [SRB]	6-4 1-6 6-4	48.8%
18	4‑Oct‑2010	Tokyo	(1)Nadal d. Viktor Troicki [SRB]	7-6(4) 4-6 7-6(7)	48.8%
19	26‑Oct‑2015	Basel	(3)Nadal d. Lukas Rosol [CZE]	1-6 7-5 7-6(4)	48.7%
20	21‑Nov‑2010	Tour Finals	Nadal d. Andy Roddick [USA]	3-6 7-6(5) 6-4	48.6%
21	17‑Oct‑2005	Madrid Masters	(1)Nadal d. (8)Ivan Ljubicic [CRO]	3-6 2-6 6-3 6-4 7-6(3)	48.5%
22	13‑Nov‑2006	Masters Cup	Nadal d. Nikolay Davydenko [RUS]	5-7 6-4 6-4	48.5%
23	27‑Feb‑2006	Dubai	(2)Nadal d. (1)Roger Federer [SUI]	2-6 6-4 6-4	47.7%

[B]DJOKOVIC LOSSES[/B]
1	29‑Oct‑2012	Paris Masters	Sam Querrey [USA] d. (2)Djokovic	0-6 7-6(5) 6-4	52.7%
2	8‑Mar‑2012	Indian Wells Masters	(11)John Isner [USA] d. (1)Djokovic	7-6(7) 3-6 7-6(5)	52.5%
3	15‑Aug‑2005	Cincinnati Masters	Fernando Gonzalez [CHI] d. (Q)Djokovic	3-6 7-6(7) 6-4	51.3%
4	13‑Jan‑2014	Australian Open	(8)Stanislas Wawrinka [SUI] d. (2)Djokovic	2-6 6-4 6-2 3-6 9-7	51.3%
5	11‑Aug‑2008	Beijing Olympics	(2)Rafael Nadal [ESP] d. (3)Djokovic	6-4 1-6 6-4	51.2%
6	24‑Jul‑2006	Umag	Stanislas Wawrinka [SUI] d. (4)Djokovic	6-6(1) RET	51.1%
7	10‑May‑2009	Madrid Masters	(1)Rafael Nadal [ESP] d. (3)Djokovic	3-6 7-6(5) 7-6(9)	51.0%
8	16‑Jan‑2017	Australian Open	Denis Istomin [UZB] d. (2)Djokovic	7-6(8) 5-7 2-6 7-6(5) 6-4	50.9%
9	25‑Aug‑2014	US Open	(10)Kei Nishikori [JPN] d. (1)Djokovic	6-4 1-6 7-6(4) 6-3	50.6%
10	23‑Jul‑2007	Umag	(Q)Viktor Troicki [SRB] d. (1)Djokovic	2-6 6-4 7-5	50.5%
11	11‑Apr‑2016	Monte Carlo Masters	Jiri Vesely [CZE] d. (1)Djokovic	6-4 2-6 6-4	50.0%
12	12‑Oct‑2008	Madrid Masters	(14)Ivo Karlovic [CRO] d. (3)Djokovic	7-6(4) 7-6(5)	50.0%
13	20‑Nov‑2011	Tour Finals	Janko Tipsarevic [SRB] d. Djokovic	3-6 6-3 6-3	50.0%
					
[B]DJOKOVIC WINS[/B]					
1	16‑Oct‑2006	Madrid Masters	(15)Djokovic d. Andy Murray [GBR]	1-6 7-5 6-3	50.0%
2	28‑May‑2007	Roland Garros	(6)Djokovic d. (WC)Olivier Patience [FRA]	7-6(2) 2-6 3-6 7-6(4) 6-3	50.0%
3	8‑Nov‑2009	Paris Masters	(3)Djokovic d. (9)Robin Soderling [SWE]	6-4 1-6 6-3	50.0%
4	26‑Aug‑2013	US Open	(1)Djokovic d. (9)Stanislas Wawrinka [SUI]	2-6 7-6(4) 3-6 6-3 6-4	50.0%
5	5‑Aug‑2007	Canada Masters	(3)Djokovic d. (1)Roger Federer [SUI]	7-6(2) 2-6 7-6(2)	49.5%
6	22‑Feb‑2010	Dubai	(2)Djokovic d. Marcos Baghdatis [CYP]	6-7(2) 6-3 6-4	49.5%
7	28‑Aug‑2006	US Open	(20)Djokovic d. Mardy Fish [USA]	7-6(5) 6-4 3-6 7-6(3)	49.3%
8	23‑Feb‑2009	Dubai	(1)Djokovic d. Jan Hernych [CZE]	6-3 3-6 6-4	49.2%
9	14‑May‑2007	Hamburg Masters	(4)Djokovic d. Jarkko Nieminen [FIN]	7-5 4-6 6-4	48.7%
10	9‑Nov‑2008	Masters Cup	Djokovic d. Nikolay Davydenko [RUS]	7-6(3) 0-6 7-5	48.6%
11	29‑Apr‑2007	Estoril	(3)Djokovic d. (5)Richard Gasquet [FRA]	7-6(7) 0-6 6-1	48.5%
12	29‑Aug‑2005	US Open	Djokovic d. Gael Monfils [FRA]	7-5 4-6 7-6(5) 0-6 7-5	46.3%

[B]MURRAY LOSSES[/B]					
	Date	Tournament		Score	TPW
1	24‑Apr‑2006	Barcelona	(5)David Ferrer [ESP] d. Murray	4-6 7-6(4) 6-1	52.3%
2	3‑Aug‑2015	Washington	Teymuraz Gabashvili [RUS] d. (1)Murray	6-4 4-6 7-6(4)	51.5%
3	21‑Nov‑2010	Tour Finals	Rafael Nadal [ESP] d. Murray	7-6(5) 3-6 7-6(6)	51.1%
4	18‑Jul‑2005	Indianapolis	(16)Mardy Fish [USA] d. (WC)Murray	6-4 4-6 6-4	50.8%
5	27‑Apr‑2009	Rome Masters	(Q)Juan Monaco [ARG] d. (4)Murray	1-6 6-3 7-5	50.8%
6	8‑Nov‑2009	Paris Masters	(13)Radek Stepanek [CZE] d. (4)Murray	1-6 6-3 6-4	50.7%
7	24‑Feb‑2014	Acapulco	(4)Grigor Dimitrov [BUL] d. (2)Murray	4-6 7-6(5) 7-6(3)	50.5%
8	4‑Aug‑2014	Canada Masters	(13)Jo Wilfried Tsonga [FRA] d. (8)Murray	7-6(5) 4-6 6-4	50.5%
9	14‑Jan‑2008	Australian Open	Jo Wilfried Tsonga [FRA] d. (9)Murray	7-5 6-4 0-6 7-6(5)	50.4%
10	18‑Apr‑2005	Barcelona	Jan Hernych [CZE] d. (WC)Murray	3-6 6-4 6-4	50.3%
11	28‑Oct‑2007	Paris Masters	(10)Richard Gasquet [FRA] d. (15)Murray	6-3 0-6 6-4	50.3%
12	19‑Jan‑2009	Australian Open	(14)Fernando Verdasco [ESP] d. (4)Murray	2-6 6-1 1-6 6-3 6-4	50.2%
13	16‑Oct‑2006	Madrid Masters	(15)Novak Djokovic [SRB] d. Murray	1-6 7-5 6-3	50.0%
					
[B]MURRAY WINS	[/B]				
1	10‑Feb‑2014	Rotterdam	(2)Murray d. (Q)Dominic Thiem [AUT]	6-4 3-6 6-3	50.0%
2	2‑Nov‑2015	Paris Masters	(2)Murray d. (10)Richard Gasquet [FRA]	7-6(7) 3-6 6-3	50.0%
3	23‑May‑2016	Roland Garros	(2)Murray d. Mathias Bourgue [FRA]	6-2 2-6 4-6 6-2 6-3	49.8%
4	25‑Aug‑2014	US Open	(8)Murray d. Robin Haase [NED]	6-3 7-6(6) 1-6 7-5	49.8%
5	27‑Apr‑2015	Munich	(1)Murray d. (5)Philipp Kohlschreiber [GER]	7-6(4) 5-7 7-6(4)	49.8%
6	19‑Feb‑2007	Memphis	(3)Murray d. Frank Dancevic [CAN]	6-3 4-6 6-4	49.7%
7	1‑Oct‑2007	Metz	(3)Murray d. Janko Tipsarevic [SRB]	6-4 1-6 6-2	49.7%
8	25‑Aug‑2008	US Open	(6)Murray d. Michael Llodra [FRA]	6-4 1-6 7-5 7-6(7)	49.4%
9	24‑Oct‑2005	Basel	(WC)Murray d. Tomas Berdych [CZE]	6-4 2-6 6-4	49.2%
10	20‑Feb‑2006	Memphis	Murray d. (LL)Rik De Voest [RSA]	7-6(4) 3-6 7-5	49.1%
11	14‑Aug‑2006	Cincinnati Masters	Murray d. (15)Robby Ginepri [USA]	7-6(3) 2-6 6-4	49.0%
12	5‑Mar‑2007	Indian Wells Masters	(13)Murray d. (9)Tommy Haas [GER]	3-6 6-3 7-6(8)	48.8%
13	3‑Mar‑2008	Dubai	Murray d. Fernando Verdasco [ESP]	6-3 3-6 7-6(5)	48.7%
14	27‑Aug‑2012	US Open	(3)Murray d. (30)Feliciano Lopez [ESP]	7-6(5) 7-6(5) 4-6 7-6(4)	48.7%

[B]FEDERER LOSSES	[/B]				
	Date	Tournament		Score	TPW
1	9‑Oct‑2000	Vienna	(6)Tim Henman [GBR] d. Federer	2-6 7-6(4) 6-3	53.6%
2	2‑Aug‑2004	Cincinnati Masters	Dominik Hrbaty [SVK] d. (1)Federer	1-6 7-6(7) 6-4	52.9%
3	28‑Aug‑2000	US Open	(12)Juan Carlos Ferrero [ESP] d. Federer	7-5 7-6(6) 1-6 7-6(6)	52.4%
4	5‑May‑2013	Madrid Masters	(14)Kei Nishikori [JPN] d. (2)Federer	6-4 1-6 6-2	52.4%
5	27‑Feb‑2006	Dubai	(2)Rafael Nadal [ESP] d. (1)Federer	2-6 6-4 6-4	52.3%
6	10‑Aug‑2009	Canada Masters	(7)Jo Wilfried Tsonga [FRA] d. (1)Federer	7-6(5) 1-6 7-6(3)	52.3%
7	1‑Oct‑2001	Moscow	Nicolas Kiefer [GER] d. (3)Federer	6-3 1-6 7-6(4)	52.1%
8	5‑May‑2008	Rome Masters	Radek Stepanek [CZE] d. (1)Federer	7-6(4) 7-6(7)	51.8%
9	20‑Jun‑2011	Wimbledon	(12)Jo Wilfried Tsonga [FRA] d. (3)Federer	3-6 6-7(3) 6-4 6-4 6-4	51.8%
10	11‑Oct‑2015	Shanghai Masters	(Q)Albert Ramos [ESP] d. (2)Federer	7-6(4) 2-6 6-3	51.8%
11	27‑Feb‑2017	Dubai	(Q)Evgeny Donskoy [RUS] d. (3)Federer	3-6 7-6(7) 7-6(5)	51.5%
12	21‑Mar‑2012	Miami Masters	(31)Andy Roddick [USA] d. (3)Federer	7-6(4) 1-6 6-4	51.5%
13	8‑May‑2011	Rome Masters	(16)Richard Gasquet [FRA] d. (3)Federer	4-6 7-6(2) 7-6(4)	51.3%
14	12‑Feb‑2001	Marseille	(2)Yevgeny Kafelnikov [RUS] d. (6)Federer	6-7(4) 6-4 6-4	51.2%
15	12‑Nov‑2007	Masters Cup	Fernando Gonzalez [CHI] d. Federer	3-6 7-6(1) 7-5	51.2%
16	28‑Jul‑2008	Cincinnati Masters	(16)Ivo Karlovic [CRO] d. (1)Federer	7-6(6) 4-6 7-6(5)	51.2%
17	21‑Jun‑1999	Wimbledon	Jiri Novak [CZE] d. (WC)Federer	6-3 3-6 4-6 6-3 6-4	51.1%
18	18‑Oct‑1999	Lyon	(13)Lleyton Hewitt [AUS] d. Federer	7-6(4) 2-6 6-4	51.0%
19	10‑Jun‑2002	Halle	Nicolas Kiefer [GER] d. (2)Federer	4-6 6-4 6-4	50.9%
20	17‑Jan‑2005	Australian Open	(4)Marat Safin [RUS] d. (1)Federer	5-7 6-4 5-7 7-6(6) 9-7	50.9%
21	13‑Oct‑2003	Madrid Masters	(1)Juan Carlos Ferrero [ESP] d. (3)Federer	6-4 4-6 6-4	50.8%
22	7‑Nov‑2010	Paris Masters	(12)Gael Monfils [FRA] d. (1)Federer	7-6(7) 6-7(1) 7-6(4)	50.8%
23	3‑May‑2015	Madrid Masters	Nick Kyrgios [AUS] d. (1)Federer	6-7(2) 7-6(5) 7-6(12)	50.8%
24	8‑May‑2006	Rome Masters	(2)Rafael Nadal [ESP] d. (1)Federer	6-7(0) 7-6(5) 6-4 2-6 7-6(5)	50.7%
25	19‑Mar‑2007	Miami Masters	(Q)Guillermo Canas [ARG] d. (1)Federer	7-6(2) 2-6 7-6(5)	50.7%
26	5‑Aug‑2007	Canada Masters	(3)Novak Djokovic [SRB] d. (1)Federer	7-6(2) 2-6 7-6(2)	50.5%
27	6‑Jun‑2016	Stuttgart	(3)Dominic Thiem [AUT] d. (1)Federer	3-6 7-6(7) 6-4	50.2%
28	19‑Feb‑2001	Rotterdam	(Q)Nicolas Escude [FRA] d. Federer	7-5 3-6 7-6(5)	50.2%
29	17‑Mar‑2003	Miami Masters	(9)Albert Costa [ESP] d. (4)Federer	7-6(4) 4-6 7-6(7)	50.2%
30	11‑Apr‑2005	Monte Carlo Masters	(Q)Richard Gasquet [FRA] d. (1)Federer	6-7(1) 6-2 7-6(8)	50.2%
31	19‑Jan‑2015	Australian Open	Andreas Seppi [ITA] d. (2)Federer	6-4 7-6(5) 4-6 7-6(5)	50.2%
32	19‑Jan‑2009	Australian Open	(1)Rafael Nadal [ESP] d. (2)Federer	7-5 3-6 7-6(3) 3-6 6-2	50.1%
33	15‑Oct‑2007	Madrid Masters	David Nalbandian [ARG] d. (1)Federer	1-6 6-3 6-3	50.0%
34	11‑Mar‑2010	Indian Wells Masters	(27)Marcos Baghdatis [CYP] d. (1)Federer	5-7 7-5 7-6(4)	50.0%
35	24‑Mar‑2010	Miami Masters	(16)Tomas Berdych [CZE] d. (1)Federer	6-4 6-7(3) 7-6(6)	50.0%
36	21‑Oct‑2013	Basel	(1)Juan Martin Del Potro [ARG] d. (3)Federer	7-6(3) 2-6 6-4	50.0%
					
[B]FEDERER WINS	[/B]				
1	9‑Oct‑2000	Vienna	Federer d. (2)Magnus Norman [SWE]	4-6 7-6(4) 6-4	50.0%
2	8‑Oct‑2001	Vienna	(4)Federer d. (LL)Nicolas Massu [CHI]	4-6 7-6(8) 6-4	50.0%
3	12‑Jun‑2006	Halle	(1)Federer d. (7)Olivier Rochus [BEL]	6-7(2) 7-6(9) 7-6(5)	50.0%
4	23‑Oct‑2000	Basel	Federer d. (3)Lleyton Hewitt [AUS]	6-4 5-7 7-6(6)	49.8%
5	15‑Jun‑2015	Halle	(1)Federer d. Philipp Kohlschreiber [GER]	7-6(8) 3-6 7-6(5)	49.8%
6	14‑Apr‑2008	Estoril	(1)Federer d. (2)Nikolay Davydenko [RUS]	7-6(5) 1-2 RET	49.5%
7	28‑Aug‑2000	US Open	Federer d. Peter Wessels [NED]	4-6 4-6 6-3 7-5 3-4 RET	49.3%
8	30‑Aug‑2004	US Open	(1)Federer d. (6)Andre Agassi [USA]	6-3 2-6 7-5 3-6 6-3	49.3%
9	14‑Nov‑2005	Masters Cup	Federer d. David Nalbandian [ARG]	6-3 2-6 6-4	49.1%
10	6‑May‑2012	Madrid Masters	(3)Federer d. Milos Raonic [CAN]	4-6 7-5 7-6(4)	49.0%
11	25‑Jun‑2001	Wimbledon	(15)Federer d. Xavier Malisse [BEL]	6-3 7-5 3-6 4-6 6-3	48.3%
 
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1
#2 ·
Re: Big 4's records when winning despite losing the same or more points than their ri

interesting how (based on the Nadal data) IF a player does win a match, despite losing more points than their opponent, that the percentage difference is usually no more than 1%. Pretty constant set of numbers there. It seems essentially in tennis its pretty safe that you almost never win the match unless you win more than 49% of the points, although I have to imagine there are instances where players have won with scorelines of like 0-6 7-6 7-6 where the points won/loss is much more extreme
 
#4 · (Edited)
Re: Big 4's records when winning despite losing the same or more points than their ri

I have to imagine there are instances where players have won with scorelines of like 0-6 7-6 7-6 where the points won/loss is much more extreme
well, yeah, getting bagelled and then winning the match would make a result like this likely.

in the above data there are a few bagels:

Code:
29‑Oct‑2012	Paris	Sam Querrey [USA] d. (2)Djokovic	0-6 7-6(5) 6-4	52.7%
9‑Nov‑2008	MC     	Djokovic d. Nikolay Davydenko [RUS]	7-6(3) 0-6 7-5	48.6%
29‑Apr‑2007	Estoril	(3)Djokovic d. (5)Richard Gasquet [FRA]	7-6(7) 0-6 6-1	48.5%
29‑Aug‑2005	US Open	Djokovic d. Gael Monfils [FRA]	7-5 4-6 7-6(5) 0-6 7-5	46.3%

4‑Jan‑2010	Doha	(3) Davydenko [RUS] d. (2)Nadal	0-6 7-6(8) 6-4	51.6%
11‑Oct‑2015	Shanghai	(16)Tsonga [FRA] d. (8)Nadal	6-4 0-6 7-5	50.8%
3‑Jan‑2011	Doha	(1) Nadal d. Lacko [SVK]	                7-6(3) 0-6 6-3	48.9%

14‑Jan‑2008	Australian Open	Tsonga [FRA] d. (9)Murray	7-5 6-4 0-6 7-6(5)	50.4%
28‑Oct‑2007	Paris	(10)Gasquet [FRA] d. (15)Murray	6-3 0-6 6-4	50.3%
I suppose a bagel and then winning might be an indication that the player tanked the set once being down a break or a double break...

Strangely enough there is not a single bagel in Federer's data even though he's the one with the most matches of this kind among the big4.
 
#3 ·
Re: Big 4's records when winning despite losing the same or more points than their ri

Interesting, thanks. Federer's stats are rough. Maybe because he often wins his service games with quite a large margin, so in close matches he may relatively often lead in points.
 
#5 ·
Re: Big 4's records when winning despite losing the same or more points than their ri

Blessing data so. Not surprised of Federer's L >= rival points. The stats clearly demonstrates that he is far tougher opponent for tour than 3 of last. As for dull 23 W <= rival :facepalm: shows how lucky he is, sort of vulturing and overachieving :clap2:
 
#6 ·
Re: Big 4's records when winning despite losing the same or more points than their ri

Blessing data so. Not surprised of Federer's L >= rival points. The stats clearly demonstrates that he is far tougher opponent for tour than 3 of last. As for dull 23 W <= rival :facepalm: shows how lucky he is, sort of vulturing and overachieving :clap2:
it actually just proves he is a bit of a choker :shrug:
 
#20 ·
The chart doesn´t show total points W/L when winning/losing, but it´s interesting that between the big 3, Nadal seems to be the luckier player, Federer the least lucky and Djokovic neutral just in between them
 
#27 ·
Without having a closer look at inidividual stats, my initial impression would be that players who are big servers AND strong returners ie All round styles, are the most likely to lose when winning more points than the opposition.

An example would be Federer.
So he tends to win his service games relatively easily.
He tends to make more inroads into opposing service games of opponents.
Net result is that is if he loses, he could quite realistically have won more points.
And if he wins, it's also unlikely that he has not won the most points.

So I think it's really more about the playing style of the players.
It points to the scoring system and winning when it counts. That is Fed could be leading 40-0 on his serve and hold 40-40 on opponent's serve on a consistent basis but if he can't get over the line in the crucial points then he wouldn't win the game or the match for that matter. in this scenario Fed would have won total of 9 points and his opponent would have won a total of 6 yet they would each have 1 game each (and on serve). Tennis is very different to let say Badminton where the game is won base on the total points you win.

Thanks for a great thread.
 
#26 ·
Without having a closer look at inidividual stats, my initial impression would be that players who are big servers AND strong returners ie All round styles, are the most likely to lose when winning more points than the opposition.

An example would be Federer.
So he tends to win his service games relatively easily.
He tends to make more inroads into opposing service games of opponents.
Net result is that is if he loses, he could quite realistically have won more points.
And if he wins, it's also unlikely that he has not won the most points.

So I think it's really more about the playing style of the players.
 
#30 ·
Ok., so i added a few more players including all current top 20 (in colour) and also subtracted all retirements since I'm interested in having a measure of clutchness and mental strength and not physical wellbeing/stamina/whatnot.

Federer went down right to the bottom now.

Nadal also went down a bit.
 
#36 ·
This thread reminded me of two matches with the almost-identical scoreline:

2015 Brisbane R16: Klizan d. Dolgopolov 1-6 7-6(6) 7-6(7)
2016 Indian Wells R16: Nishikori d. Isner 1-6 7-6(2) 7-6(5)

These were very different matches, though - good examples of the scoreline not telling the whole story. Isner lost the match despite winning more points, which is obvious from the scoreline, but he only won 52% of the points in that one. Surprisingly low.

OTOH, Dolgopolov won almost 56% of the points and still lost that Brisbane match. That one was pretty surreal and wild, might be some kind of a record. It's Klizan after all, who tends to lose many points in a row cheaply when unfocused, but I remember him trying to break at 1-5* in the 1st set to get back into the match, even though he had been broken to love twice in the set already. Overall messy, unpredictable, inconsistent guy who tends to mess up the stats like this.

And who can forget this one...

2015 Roland Garros R64: Benjamin Becker d. Fernando Verdasco 6-4 0-6 1-6 7-5 10-8

Verdasco won 53.6% of the points and still lost to B. Becker on clay. I don't think these numbers alone tell you the whole story, though. That was vintage Fiasco. It's inconceivable that many other players would've lost this one from the dominant position, not only score-wise but also performance-wise, where Verdasco was after the 3rd set. He scored tons more winners, and only about as many UE's as Becker, yet still lost the match.
 
#39 ·
This thread reminded me of two matches with the almost-identical scoreline:

2015 Brisbane R16: Klizan d. Dolgopolov 1-6 7-6(6) 7-6(7)
2016 Indian Wells R16: Nishikori d. Isner 1-6 7-6(2) 7-6(5)

These were very different matches, though - good examples of the scoreline not telling the whole story. Isner lost the match despite winning more points, which is obvious from the scoreline, but he only won 52% of the points in that one. Surprisingly low.

OTOH, Dolgopolov won almost 56% of the points and still lost that Brisbane match. That one was pretty surreal and wild, might be some kind of a record. It's Klizan after all, who tends to lose many points in a row cheaply when unfocused, but I remember him trying to break at 1-5* in the 1st set to get back into the match, even though he had been broken to love twice in the set already. Overall messy, unpredictable, inconsistent guy who tends to mess up the stats like this.

And who can forget this one...

2015 Roland Garros R64: Benjamin Becker d. Fernando Verdasco 6-4 0-6 1-6 7-5 10-8

Verdasco won 53.6% of the points and still lost to B. Becker on clay. I don't think these numbers alone tell you the whole story, though. That was vintage Fiasco. It's inconceivable that many other players would've lost this one from the dominant position, not only score-wise but also performance-wise, where Verdasco was after the 3rd set. He scored tons more winners, and only about as many UE's as Becker, yet still lost the match.
Yeah, actually Klizan d. Dolgo is the most extreme case in my entire data (over 2300 matches in which the winner wins less points) so it might be most extreme case in the entire history of the ATP tour, or at the very least it's surely in the medal podium.

It's closely followed by Delic d. Mahut in the Sarajevo 2011 Challenger 6-4 1-6 7-6(8) losing 55.2% of the points.

In the ATP it's followed by López d. Malisse 0-6 7-5 6-4 in Miami 2002 despite losing almost 55% of the points, Duckworth d. Sela in Queen's 2014 0-6 7-6(5) 6-4 despite losing 54.6% of the points, Haas d. Enqvist in Munich 2000 7-6(5) 1-6 6-4 losing 54.1% of the points and Matosevic d. Gasquet 1-6 7-6(5) 7-6(3) in Eastbourne 2012 despite losing 53.9% of the points.

It's no surprise that all of these matches are considered to be major chokes by the losing player.
 
#40 ·
Curiously enough, RAFA's 5 of his 21 victories of this kind have been against the other members of the big4:

7-6(5) 3-6 7-6(6) over Murray in the ATP Tour Finals 2010 (lost 51.1% of the points)
6-4 1-6 6-4 over Djokovic in the Beijing Olympics 2008 (lost 51.2% of the points)
3-6 7-6(5) 7-6(9) over Djokovic in Madrid 2009 (lost 51% of the points)
2-6 6-4 6-4 over Federer in Dubai 2006 (lost 52.3% of the points)
6-7(0) 7-6(5) 6-4 2-6 7-6(5) in Rome 2006 (lost 50.7% of the points)
7-5 3-6 7-6(3) 3-6 6-2 in AO 2009 (lost (50.1% of the points)
 
#43 ·
and with regards to clutch, you might be interested to read this

https://www.perfect-tennis.com/who-says-roger-federer-is-not-clutch/

here is what the author has to say in conclusion:
------------

I've said before that Roger's mental strength is often under rated because he's such a good front runner and was simply too good for everyone in his prime that he didn't really have to show his ability under extreme pressure.

He's shown frailties, but so have most players including the ultra clutch Nadal (AO Final 2012) so he's simply human and sometimes can't focus when it matters. But despite a lot of trolls claiming he can't win matches from behind he's won 13 matches in his career from match point down.

Matches Federer has won from match point down:
• 2011- Federer vs F. Lopez (1 MP) Madrid R32
• 2011 – Doubles Federer/Wawrinka vs. Benneteau/Gasquet (3 MP's) Indian Wells R16
• 2006- Federer vs O. Rochus (3 MP's) Halle QF
• 2006 – Federer vs. Roddick (3 MP's) Tennis Masters Cup RR
• 2005- Federer vs Ferrero (2 MP's) Dubai R16
• 2003- Federer vs S. Draper (7 MP's) Cincinnati R64
• 2003 – Federer vs Verkerk (4 MP's) Paris R16
• 2003 – Federer vs Agassi (2 MP's) Tennis Masters Cup RR
• 2001- Federer vs Massu (3 MP's) Vienna R32
• 2001- Federer vs Johansson (1 MP) Miami R16
• 2000- Federer vs Ljubicic (2 MP's) Marseille QF
• 2000 – Federer vs Hewitt (1 MP) Basel R16
• 1999- Federer vs Raoux (2 MP's) Rotterdam R32

So there you have it, I'd say Roger is pretty clutch when it matters. He's had a lot of tough defeats and sometimes folded under pressure but like the True GOAT he's always found a way back and come up with the goods.
---------------
 
#44 · (Edited)
But despite a lot of trolls claiming he can't win matches from behind he's won 13 matches in his career from match point down.

Matches Federer has won from match point down:
• 2011- Federer vs F. Lopez (1 MP) Madrid R32
• 2011 – Doubles Federer/Wawrinka vs. Benneteau/Gasquet (3 MP's) Indian Wells R16
• 2006- Federer vs O. Rochus (3 MP's) Halle QF
• 2006 – Federer vs. Roddick (3 MP's) Tennis Masters Cup RR
• 2005- Federer vs Ferrero (2 MP's) Dubai R16
• 2003- Federer vs S. Draper (7 MP's) Cincinnati R64
• 2003 – Federer vs Verkerk (4 MP's) Paris R16
• 2003 – Federer vs Agassi (2 MP's) Tennis Masters Cup RR
• 2001- Federer vs Massu (3 MP's) Vienna R32
• 2001- Federer vs Johansson (1 MP) Miami R16
• 2000- Federer vs Ljubicic (2 MP's) Marseille QF
• 2000 – Federer vs Hewitt (1 MP) Basel R16
• 1999- Federer vs Raoux (2 MP's) Rotterdam R32

So there you have it, I'd say Roger is pretty clutch when it matters. He's had a lot of tough defeats and sometimes folded under pressure but like the True GOAT he's always found a way back and come up with the goods.
---------------
I only see 12 matches in your list and I'd wouldn't count the doubles one, though. You also need to factor in the matches where Federer has lost from MP up. Federer is 16-17 which is actually a lot better than what I thought he'd be (yet, still by far the worst among the Big4).

There is actually another thread about this very topic:

http://www.menstennisforums.com/2-g...g-having-match-point-new-nadal-iw-2015-a.html
 
#45 ·
Pressure points in three categories:

- Deciding tiebreaks
- Fifth sets
- Victories (losses) despite winning the same or less (more) points than their rival.

I ordered the players using a weighted average of the percentage of each category. Current top 10 players in colour.

 
#57 ·
@abraxas:This stats just confirm that Nadal and Nole are better mentally that Roger what everybody already knows.

You can say that Nadal,djokovic,del potro,wawrinka are better mentally than roger but roger is better mentally than rest of the field.
You can't be weak mentally and have 18 slams titles, having won vs cilic in WIM16 saving matchpoints and versus Monfils savingmatchpoints at US14. you can't be weak winning 16-14 vs Roddick, etc..

Guy who is weak mentally is typically Monfils who choke evertyme he is in 4rters/semis vs Djoker,nadal,federer in slams.

Better criteria to mental strength/weakness is % of TB's won and 5set win%. i think fed is above 50% in both categories.

It's just indirect confirmation that Fed is GOAT in technical/natural skills in tennis cause he has most of best records by losing a lot of "close" matches , which shows that either he wins by destroying opponents, either he loses very closely playing as goog as it opponents(number of points won) , but failing to convert break points by being too passive like vs djokovic in Us open 2015.
Big servers that win their matches in TB's should have a bunch of matches where they win the match by winning less points than thei opponents like Isner/karlovic winning 7-6 2-6 7-6. So in fact style of game (servebots or baseline grinders) may have an impact on your board of stats.
 
#58 ·
And also your board would suggest Murray is "stronger" mentally than wawrinka which is absolute joke.
You can't be weak winning vs Djokovic in 2 slams finals after losing the first set, by winnin 3 straight sets.
However you can be weak mentally when you lose your first 4 grand slams finals winning only a set like murray, findink a way to choke set points vs Fed in AO2010 3rd set.

WIN:Lose% in finals is another indicator of mental strenghth. federer won 24 finals in a row at some point in its career and wawrinka 11 of last 12 before losing to Zverev last year in ST petersburg.

Wawrinka like Fognini are less motivated vs inferior opponents but play their best vs Top10 like fognini in us open 2015 vs nadal.

So mental strength can be linked to motivation in some matches also and motivation is a hidden factor/criteria that is not reflected in your stats

my 2cents
 
#64 ·
This is probably bound to occur frequently on grass. I don't have proper stats but given the serve nature as long as you find a hold it could go either way.
 
#67 ·
perfectly normal on grass, doesn't necessarily someone choked.
Struff doesn't care whether he needs to choke or not, he simply does it. :worship:

Otherwise I agree, Botnics match is a prime example of this IMO, a terrible returner like him having 0/9 BPs isn't that much of a choke.
 
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