What if Federer ends up with losing h2h against all Big 4 members? - MensTennisForums.com
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post #1 of 395 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 05:59 PM Thread Starter
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What if Federer ends up with losing h2h against all Big 4 members?

There is no way Fed will catch up 12-23 against Rafa.

Fed is 22-23 against Djokovic and he will most likely end up with losing h2h against Novak.

Fed is 14-11 against Murray, and since Fed doesn't get any younger and Murray is at his peak, Murray has a chance to turn this around.


What will mean for Federer's legacy if he ends up with losing h2h against all of his main rivals?
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post #2 of 395 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 06:04 PM
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Re: What if Federer ends up with losing h2h against all Big 4 members?

Andy will 99% not turn it around, They might not even meet that many times, and if they do, Andy won't win 3 in a row.

Novak's lead might evaporate very soon. He's in worse form these days.

Rafa is of course out of reach, and a slight thorn in Fed's legacy, but no one is perfect.
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post #3 of 395 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 06:12 PM
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Re: What if Federer ends up with losing h2h against all Big 4 members?

Federer will still be better than Djokovic
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post #4 of 395 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 06:14 PM
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Re: What if Federer ends up with losing h2h against all Big 4 members?

It means nothing to his legacy. He has won what he has won. H2H means something only about individual match-ups.

RAFA said this best. He related this to football (soccer) and said, if for example, Manchester United loses to Chelsea every time during the regular season when they play, but goes through the league and wins the championship, Manchester United is still the best team. And he said, tennis is the same, the best players are those who win the biggest titles, most consistent at the top of the game, and that H2H is only important for individual matches.

I'll try to find the quote, but from what I recall, that is pretty close to what he said.

H2H is generally overrated by media and fans. Players are playing to win titles against the field, not individual matches. It is an insult to boil it down to 4 or 5 players.

Edit: Here is the actual statement from Nadal:

Rafael Nadal may lead Roger Federer 20-10 in their FedEx ATP Head2Head series, but insists that the numbers in the record books support his belief that the Swiss is the greatest player in history. He used a football analogy to illustrate his point: “Chelsea beat Manchester United in both matches during the season, but Manchester United won the Premier League. The better team is Manchester United.

“I am happy about what I achieved,” he continued. “I am happy about what I am winning. But Roger has better numbers than me, and that's the reality. Nobody has more Grand Slams than him. He's the guy with most weeks in the history of No. 1. So these kind of records say that he's the best in history. Numbers are for that.”


Respectfully,
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Last edited by masterclass; 02-08-2017 at 06:21 PM.
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post #5 of 395 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 06:19 PM
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Re: What if Federer ends up with losing h2h against all Big 4 members?

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Originally Posted by masterclass View Post
It means nothing to his legacy. He has won what he has won. H2H means something only about individual match-ups.

RAFA said this best. He related this to football (soccer) and said, if for example, Manchester United loses to Chelsea every time during the regular season when they play, but goes through the league and wins the championship, Manchester United is still the best team. And he said, tennis is the same, the best players are those who win the biggest titles, most consistent at the top of the game, and that H2H is only important for individual matches.

I'll try to find the quote, but from what I recall, that is pretty close to what he said.

H2H is generally overrated by media and fans. Players are playing to win titles against the field, not individual matches. It is an insult to boil it down to 4 or 5 players.

Respectfully,
masterclass
Don't bother. Against the field is 100% correct but Dulltards and Djoker fans ignore this fact and choose to tune it out. Lol
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post #6 of 395 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 06:27 PM Thread Starter
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Re: What if Federer ends up with losing h2h against all Big 4 members?

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Originally Posted by masterclass View Post
It means nothing to his legacy. He has won what he has won. H2H means something only about individual match-ups.

RAFA said this best. He related this to football (soccer) and said, if for example, Manchester United loses to Chelsea every time during the regular season when they play, but goes through the league and wins the championship, Manchester United is still the best team. And he said, tennis is the same, the best players are those who win the biggest titles, most consistent at the top of the game, and that H2H is only important for individual matches.

I'll try to find the quote, but from what I recall, that is pretty close to what he said.

H2H is generally overrated by media and fans. Players are playing to win titles against the field, not individual matches. It is an insult to boil it down to 4 or 5 players.

Respectfully,
masterclass
Rafa is just being Humblito.

h2h against irrelevant players with small number of matches is irrelevant, but h2h against main rivals with 25+ matches is very relevant. And Big 4 know this. Even Federer.

If Fed ends up with losing h2h against all of his main rivals it may be too big of a hole in his resume.
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post #7 of 395 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 06:30 PM Thread Starter
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Re: What if Federer ends up with losing h2h against all Big 4 members?

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Federer will still be better than Djokovic
Djokovic has leading h2h against all Big 4 members, something Fed will never achieve
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post #8 of 395 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 06:31 PM
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Re: What if Federer ends up with losing h2h against all Big 4 members?

When Michael Jordan came back for one season with the Wizards it did nothing.

When Mario Lemieux came back it dropped his 3 points per game average to 2.5 points per game but that's about it.

What would Federer's legacy do to him for staying on tour way past his prime? Probably the same as it did to Lemieux, drop some meaningless stats a bit but Lemieux is still super Mario.

So what does it do? The past has shown us that it does very little. GOATS are still the goats and Roger living legend Federer is still the GOAT Roger Federer.

Last edited by Tomatoes11; 02-08-2017 at 07:14 PM.
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post #9 of 395 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 06:32 PM
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Re: What if Federer ends up with losing h2h against all Big 4 members?

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Rafa is just being Humblito.

h2h against irrelevant players with small number of matches is irrelevant, but h2h against main rivals with 25+ matches is very relevant. And Big 4 know this. Even Federer.

If Fed ends up with losing h2h against all of his main rivals it may be too big of a hole in his resume.
Lol puleeze. Denial must be fun for you because you are swimming in it.
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post #10 of 395 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 06:34 PM
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Re: What if Federer ends up with losing h2h against all Big 4 members?

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Originally Posted by vjmtz View Post

If Fed ends up with losing h2h against all of his main rivals it may be too big of a hole in his resume.
If Rod Laver, Pete Sampras, Agassi returned to the tour right now, won zero matches against anyone on tour, would it hurt their legacy?
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post #11 of 395 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 06:38 PM
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Re: What if Federer ends up with losing h2h against all Big 4 members?

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Originally Posted by vjmtz View Post
There is no way Fed will catch up 12-23 against Rafa.

Fed is 22-23 against Djokovic and he will most likely end up with losing h2h against Novak.

Fed is 14-11 against Murray, and since Fed doesn't get any younger and Murray is at his peak, Murray has a chance to turn this around.


What will mean for Federer's legacy if he ends up with losing h2h against all of his main rivals?
It means nothing for his legacy, because any reasonable unbiased observer knows that:

*MURRAY*
-Will never win 4 more times against Fed while Fed wins 0
-h2h might get worse if anything, since Fed has Murray's number

*NADAL*

-Federer has a leading h2h vs Nadal on grass.
-Federer has a leading h2h vs Nadal on fast hard courts.
-Almost half of their matches were on clay, Federer's worst surface, Nadal being the GOAT of clay.
-Nadal is 6 years younger and played many matches against Fed when he was 30+ past his peak.
-h2h is 10-10 on all surfaces but clay, which actually proves Federer is better on every surface but clay, since Nadal is 6 years younger and was in his peak years when he played many matches against a 30+ year old Federer.
-h2h on clay is 13-2, wow what a shocker, GOAT clay court player of all time has such an insane winning h2h against someone who's worst surface is clay, wow he owns him badly *sarcasm off*

*DJOKOVIC*

-had a losing h2h against Federer for most of his career, only after Federer started getting old 30+ did he start to catch up to him and eventually surpass him by just 1 win at Fed's 34 years of age lol, and even then, an old 33-34 aged Federer managed to snatch a few wins, which is pretty ridicilous considering Djokovic was in his peak years being 27, thats actually unheard of, and speaks volume on how good Federer is.


Meanwhile all the trolls and biased fanboys will cherry pick stats that suit them to try to prove other people wrong and try to feel better about themselves and convince themselves of something that isn't even true, so have fun with that OP, but ur not convincing any smart unbiased observer, as hard as you might try, because we know facts and don't just cherry pick and view everything in a way that might suit just your favorite player.
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post #12 of 395 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 06:43 PM
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Re: What if Federer ends up with losing h2h against all Big 4 members?

Quote:
Originally Posted by masterclass View Post
It means nothing to his legacy. He has won what he has won. H2H means something only about individual match-ups.

RAFA said this best. He related this to football (soccer) and said, if for example, Manchester United loses to Chelsea every time during the regular season when they play, but goes through the league and wins the championship, Manchester United is still the best team. And he said, tennis is the same, the best players are those who win the biggest titles, most consistent at the top of the game, and that H2H is only important for individual matches.

I'll try to find the quote, but from what I recall, that is pretty close to what he said.

H2H is generally overrated by media and fans. Players are playing to win titles against the field, not individual matches. It is an insult to boil it down to 4 or 5 players.

Edit: Here is the actual statement from Nadal:

Rafael Nadal may lead Roger Federer 20-10 in their FedEx ATP Head2Head series, but insists that the numbers in the record books support his belief that the Swiss is the greatest player in history. He used a football analogy to illustrate his point: “Chelsea beat Manchester United in both matches during the season, but Manchester United won the Premier League. The better team is Manchester United.

“I am happy about what I achieved,” he continued. “I am happy about what I am winning. But Roger has better numbers than me, and that's the reality. Nobody has more Grand Slams than him. He's the guy with most weeks in the history of No. 1. So these kind of records say that he's the best in history. Numbers are for that.”


Respectfully,
masterclass
This is spot on... Nadal has also gone up in my estimation having read that.
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post #13 of 395 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 06:44 PM Thread Starter
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Re: What if Federer ends up with losing h2h against all Big 4 members?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomatoes11 View Post
When Michael Jordan came back for one season with the Wizards it did nothing.

When Mario Lemieux came back it dropped his 3 points per game average to 2.5 points per game but that's about it.

What would Federer's legacy do to him for staying on tour way past his prime? Probably the same as it did to Lemieux, drop some meaningless stats a bit but Lemieux is still super Mario.

So what does it do? The past has shown us that it does very little. GOATS are still the goats and Roger living legend Federe is still the GOAT Roger Federer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by clearwaters View Post
If Rod Laver, Pete Sampras, Agassi returned to the tour right now, won zero matches against anyone on tour, would it hurt their legacy?
You can't win slams and being justified for age. You can't go both ways.

If Sampras came to the tour and won 0 matches, nobody would take these matches into account, but if he came back and played GS final, everybody would took his matches and results more seriously.

If Jordan went to the final with Wizards and lost, there wouldn't be an argument anymore about 100% success in finals, which is proudly used by media, and everybody would be more serious about his stats, h2h with Kobe, etc...

If you still play at the high level, all your results count, even if you are in 40s.

You can't go both ways...
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post #14 of 395 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 06:46 PM
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Re: What if Federer ends up with losing h2h against all Big 4 members?

Don't think it would damage it all that much to be honest. With his outstanding numbers (unless Novak or Nadal can get closer) and the worldwide massive appeal his playing style/game enjoys most people will still regard him as the greatest (or at worst one of the greatest) either way.

Wouldn't say Murray is at his peak either if we're talking about best surfaces (grass and HC, that was probably 2012-2013), he played his best CC tennis last year though.
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post #15 of 395 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 06:48 PM Thread Starter
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Re: What if Federer ends up with losing h2h against all Big 4 members?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FiReFTW View Post
It means nothing for his legacy, because any reasonable unbiased observer knows that:

*MURRAY*
-Will never win 4 more times against Fed while Fed wins 0
-h2h might get worse if anything, since Fed has Murray's number

*NADAL*

-Federer has a leading h2h vs Nadal on grass.
-Federer has a leading h2h vs Nadal on fast hard courts.
-Almost half of their matches were on clay, Federer's worst surface, Nadal being the GOAT of clay.
-Nadal is 6 years younger and played many matches against Fed when he was 30+ past his peak.
-h2h is 10-10 on all surfaces but clay, which actually proves Federer is better on every surface but clay, since Nadal is 6 years younger and was in his peak years when he played many matches against a 30+ year old Federer.
-h2h on clay is 13-2, wow what a shocker, GOAT clay court player of all time has such an insane winning h2h against someone who's worst surface is clay, wow he owns him badly *sarcasm off*

*DJOKOVIC*

-had a losing h2h against Federer for most of his career, only after Federer started getting old 30+ did he start to catch up to him and eventually surpass him by just 1 win at Fed's 34 years of age lol, and even then, an old 33-34 aged Federer managed to snatch a few wins, which is pretty ridicilous considering Djokovic was in his peak years being 27, thats actually unheard of, and speaks volume on how good Federer is.


Meanwhile all the trolls and biased fanboys will cherry pick stats that suit them to try to prove other people wrong and try to feel better about themselves and convince themselves of something that isn't even true, so have fun with that OP, but ur not convincing any smart unbiased observer, as hard as you might try, because we know facts and don't just cherry pick and view everything in a way that might suit just your favorite player.
Fraud gained his h2h advantage on pre-prime, undeveloped Glutenovic. Djokovic gained h2h advantage on Fed who still plays GS finals. Big difference
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