nadal - he tied borg's record of 16 titles won as a teenager - MensTennisForums.com
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post #1 of 60 (permalink) Old 10-25-2005, 04:51 PM Thread Starter
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nadal - he tied borg's record of 16 titles won as a teenager

another thread about nadal... sorry, i can't help it

but would nadal be the most successful teen player?

his slam record may not be brilliant, (anyway, only 7 players can win a GS as a teenager) but he has already won most titles in a calender year:

Rafael Nadal 11 2005
Mats Wilander 9 1983
Bjorn Borg 7 1974
Andre Agassi 6 1988
Boris Becker 6 1986
John McEnroe 5 1978
Bjorn Borg 5 1975
Jimmy Connors 5 1972

and total titles won by teenager:

Rafael Nadal 16
Bjorn Borg 16
Mats Wilander 13
Boris Becker 12
Andre Agassi 10
Andrei Medvedev 8
Lleyton Hewitt 7
Michael Chang 6

GS won by teenager:

Mats Wilander 2 - 1 AO, 1 RG
Bjorn Borg 2 - RG
Boris Becker 2 - Wimbledon
Rafael Nadal 1 - RG
Pete Sampras 1 - USO
Michael Chang 1 - RG
Stefan Edberg 1 - AO


Last edited by jenanun; 05-15-2006 at 09:47 PM. Reason: update stats
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post #2 of 60 (permalink) Old 10-25-2005, 05:37 PM Thread Starter
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Re: nadal - the most successful teen player?

just to add a little bit more info:

Nadal's 24 match winning streak is the longest streak of any teenager in the Open Era.
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post #3 of 60 (permalink) Old 10-25-2005, 05:40 PM
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Re: nadal - the most successful teen player?

i think there was a thread about this a while back. you might want to bump that one, to see what people had to say, you can add the new stats.

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post #4 of 60 (permalink) Old 10-25-2005, 05:43 PM
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Re: nadal - the most successful teen player?

Boris's back to back Wimbledons at 17 and 18 would still give him the edge for me.
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post #5 of 60 (permalink) Old 10-25-2005, 05:43 PM Thread Starter
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Re: nadal - the most successful teen player?

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Originally Posted by PaulieM
i think there was a thread about this a while back. you might want to bump that one, to see what people had to say, you can add the new stats.
hm i guess someone must have done that as well....

sorry..

*go and find the old thread*
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post #6 of 60 (permalink) Old 10-25-2005, 06:04 PM
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Re: nadal - the most successful teen player?

I'd go with Wilander. Almost as many as titles as Borg and one more slam. Rafa's stats are impressive too, but I can't go with him on this one at the present time.

Then again, I some might debate the importance of Wilander's first two AO's, but whatever. I'm not really in the mood
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post #7 of 60 (permalink) Old 10-25-2005, 08:57 PM
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Re: nadal - the most successful teen player?

wasn't aaron krickstein really good when he was young?
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post #8 of 60 (permalink) Old 10-25-2005, 10:06 PM
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Re: nadal - the most successful teen player?

I would still go with Wilander and Borg (although Nadal is near the top of the list). That's because their slam results are superior.

Other than his RG win, Nadal has never made the QF of a slam.

Wilander, in addition to his 2AO and 1RG wins, also reached the following as a teenager:

1 RG Final
1 RG Semi
1 USO QF

Borg, in addition to his 2 RG, also reached the following as a teenager:

1 RG QF
2 Wimb QF
1 USO SF

Borg's first Wimbledon was very soon after his 20th birthday.

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Last edited by MisterQ; 10-25-2005 at 10:10 PM.
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post #9 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-08-2005, 06:15 AM
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Re: nadal - the most successful teen player?

He is lucky that he wasnt born at the same time as Agassi and Samprass....
C'mon, look how old Andre is and he is still top 5, just think how good when he is at his prime 10 years ago, I have always been a fan of Michael Chang who I believe we more talented and better clay courter than Nadal (who won RG much younger as well), just born at the worse time possible. But admittedly Rafael is the most "accomplished" teenager player, but in term of most talented, probably for the past decade, certainly not in history.
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post #10 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-08-2005, 06:19 AM
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Re: nadal - the most successful teen player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennis_Passion
He is lucky that he wasnt born at the same time as Agassi and Samprass....
C'mon, look how old Andre is and he is still top 5, just think how good when he is at his prime 10 years ago, I have always been a fan of Michael Chang who I believe we more talented and better clay courter than Nadal (who won RG much younger as well), just born at the worse time possible. But admittedly Rafael is the most "accomplished" teenager player, but in term of most talented, probably for the past decade, certainly not in history.
Chang a better claycourt player than Nadal? That is very funny and how do you explain that? It's about his success as a teen, not who is more talented.

On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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post #11 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-08-2005, 06:26 AM
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Re: nadal - the most successful teen player?

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Originally Posted by GeorgeWHitler
Chang a better claycourt player than Nadal? That is very funny and how do you explain that? It's about his success as a teen, not who is more talented.
Michael has better tactics/better anticipation/better shot selection than Rafael.
Rafael is just a natural athelete without too much to work on, yes, he may have a bit of wicked spin, but from what I see, his talent is nowhere near Roger's or Michael's/
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post #12 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-08-2005, 06:36 AM
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Re: nadal - the most successful teen player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennis_Passion
Michael has better tactics/better anticipation/better shot selection than Rafael.
Rafael is just a natural athelete without too much to work on, yes, he may have a bit of wicked spin, but from what I see, his talent is nowhere near Roger's or Michael's/
This about teenage players at the time, not who is more talented, and who is more successful.

Since you want to go on a tangent. Yes, well Chang couldn't beat Muster on clay who was a prototype for Nadal.

Chang had raw speed, Nadal is not as quick, but his anticipation is outstanding. Better shot selection very debatable, Nadal doesn't play stupid shots and neither did Chang. Nadal moves better on clay than Chang, not just about speed, overall movement. Nadal has nearly won everything already on clay, something Chang never came close to.

Chang wasn't a complete player or close to a complete player, look what happened when he lost a little bit of speed. Nadal isn't anywhere near one as yet, but not even close as to who the better teen player was out of these two.

On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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post #13 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-08-2005, 07:09 AM
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Re: nadal - the most successful teen player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeWHitler
This about teenage players at the time, not who is more talented, and who is more successful.

Since you want to go on a tangent. Yes, well Chang couldn't beat Muster on clay who was a prototype for Nadal.

Chang had raw speed, Nadal is not as quick, but his anticipation is outstanding. Better shot selection very debatable, Nadal doesn't play stupid shots and neither did Chang. Nadal moves better on clay than Chang, not just about speed, overall movement. Nadal has nearly won everything already on clay, something Chang never came close to.

Chang wasn't a complete player or close to a complete player, look what happened when he lost a little bit of speed. Nadal isn't anywhere near one as yet, but not even close as to who the better teen player was out of these two.
Well, Muster beat a lot of people, just as Nadal did, but that does not make him a greater player than those he beat. But yes, Thomas Muster is probably the best clay-court player in history. But I must disagree with him being Nadal's prototype. Thomas Muster was not the aggressive player that Nadal is, and he also has more variety in his game, I would say he should be more closely associated with Coria, despite playing left-handed. And I have to say that Chang, while fast, does have one of the best anticipation right up there with Hewitt and probably Safin. Nadal also is a one-dimentional player and his accomplishment, as I said, came at an era when the #3 player, Hewitt in this instance, doesnt care much about winning, #4, player, Roddick, who cant win anything, and a #1 player who skips Master events from time to time. I admit that he is a successful, (Chang's success also came at an earlier age mind you), but he certainly is one that I would consider as being one of the talented, off-topic, but still worthy of note.
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post #14 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-08-2005, 07:20 AM
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Re: nadal - the most successful teen player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennis_Passion
Well, Muster beat a lot of people, just as Nadal did, but that does not make him a greater player than those he beat. But yes, Thomas Muster is probably the best clay-court player in history. But I must disagree with him being Nadal's prototype. Thomas Muster was not the aggressive player that Nadal is, and he also has more variety in his game, I would say he should be more closely associated with Coria, despite playing left-handed. And I have to say that Chang, while fast, does have one of the best anticipation right up there with Hewitt and probably Safin. Nadal also is a one-dimentional player and his accomplishment, as I said, came at an era when the #3 player, Hewitt in this instance, doesnt care much about winning, #4, player, Roddick, who cant win anything, and a #1 player who skips Master events from time to time. I admit that he is a successful, (Chang's success also came at an earlier age mind you), but he certainly is one that I would consider as being one of the talented, off-topic, but still worthy of note.
Muster was nowhere the best player in claycourt history not even close, number 5 at best. Why is Nadal like Muster? Extreme determination, excellent anticipation and both can attack when they needed to and had/have outstanding defensive skills, can run all day, hugely dominant with their forehands, but hard to break down their backhands that is much more in common with Muster than other players.

Chang won RG when it was it's weakest, if you want to play that game, in trying to discredit Nadal. Wilander was on the slide and gone, Lendl was outsmarted by Chang, he had a weaker field and after his RG achievement he didn't come close to winning there again, easily beaten in 95.

Yes, Nadal only won Monte Carlo, Barcelona (tougher than most TMS clay events), Rome and RG in the same season that easily out accomplishes anything Chang did as a teen in an overall context.

On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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post #15 of 60 (permalink) Old 11-08-2005, 07:32 AM
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Re: nadal - the most successful teen player?

Like I said.....I am not trying to discredit Nadal's success. I think he did accomplish a lot this year matching titles won with Federer. Just saying that he does not have any challenge from anywhere else other than Roger while Chang at that time had to face a field that's deeper than today where there were a number of players who could win RG. And Muster was to me one of the greatest clay-courter, putting him at #5 on your list, I say, under-rated him. While I can see the similarity you describe between Muster and Nadal, there are just too many differences in the way they play. Again, not trying to discredit him, but one needs to look at the context before hailing as the "greatest teenager player" in the world. Pete won his first slam at 19 when people thought Chang was the "greatest teenager player" in the world, you know how the story turns out. Nada may have "early" success, (I wouldnt call early if you compare him to Chang), but that may not be a good indicator as how good he could be in the future. Roddick won his first slam pretty young with a handful of masters title back then as well, didnt turn out that great since then.

Last edited by Tennis_Passion; 11-08-2005 at 07:35 AM.
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