Are Djokovic and Nadal co-champions for 2013? - Page 5 - MensTennisForums.com

View Poll Results: Should Djokovic and Nadal be regarded as equally best players in 2013?
Yes 21 17.07%
No 95 77.24%
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post #61 of 126 (permalink) Old 12-27-2013, 03:33 PM
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Re: Are Djokovic and Nadal co-champions for 2013?

Nadal's "hole" in his resume is supposed to be weeks ranked #1....and yet, Nadal has been ranked #1 for more weeks than Djokovic....and Nadal has more year-ending #1s than Djokovic. You know you are great when your weakness is better than your rival's strength!
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post #62 of 126 (permalink) Old 12-27-2013, 04:13 PM
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Re: Are Djokovic and Nadal co-champions for 2013?

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Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
Why does ATP ranking takes into account how deep players go in tournaments?
Because the further a player goes in a tournament, the greater his achievement is. Reaching more rounds requires beating more players, and generally the quality of the opposition increases with each successive round. If we didn't have such a system, either everyone would receive no points for finishing a "runner up", or they would all receive the same points - in both cases there would be no meaningful way of ranking "non-winners".

At the same time tournaments exist to establish one single best player. Winning is qualitatively different from coming runner up, because it represents a victory over the field. If it wasn't, then we wouldn't need to have finals at all. We could give the finalists equal points, and they could go home and have a rest.

Because of this, there is a sense in which going deep in tournaments does not make up for a failure to win titles. Djokovic could make the final of every tournament he played, and be the number one in the world, losing every one of those finals to the same group of players. He would be "mathematically" no worse off than he is now, but I think we would struggle to claim he was the best player, and Djokovic and his fans would prefer to exchange going deep in tournaments with actual title wins.
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post #63 of 126 (permalink) Old 12-28-2013, 09:18 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Are Djokovic and Nadal co-champions for 2013?

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Originally Posted by tribalfusion View Post
A "hole" in his resume? Then not winning any of the other slams and losing in more masters what kind of "hole" is that?
Holes in resume are very poor results. Djokovic's worst result is the loss in the second round at Madrid Masters but that's not comparable to Nadal's loss in the first round of Wimbledon.

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Because the further a player goes in a tournament, the greater his achievement is. Reaching more rounds requires beating more players, and generally the quality of the opposition increases with each successive round. If we didn't have such a system, either everyone would receive no points for finishing a "runner up", or they would all receive the same points - in both cases there would be no meaningful way of ranking "non-winners".

At the same time tournaments exist to establish one single best player. Winning is qualitatively different from coming runner up, because it represents a victory over the field. If it wasn't, then we wouldn't need to have finals at all. We could give the finalists equal points, and they could go home and have a rest.

Because of this, there is a sense in which going deep in tournaments does not make up for a failure to win titles. Djokovic could make the final of every tournament he played, and be the number one in the world, losing every one of those finals to the same group of players. He would be "mathematically" no worse off than he is now, but I think we would struggle to claim he was the best player, and Djokovic and his fans would prefer to exchange going deep in tournaments with actual title wins.
But ATP ranking is designed to determine who is the best player.
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post #64 of 126 (permalink) Old 12-28-2013, 10:29 PM
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Re: Are Djokovic and Nadal co-champions for 2013?

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But ATP ranking is designed to determine who is the best player.
Who does the ATP ranking say was the best player in 2013?
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post #65 of 126 (permalink) Old 12-29-2013, 05:45 AM
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Re: Are Djokovic and Nadal co-champions for 2013?

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Holes in resume are very poor results
So a guy who finishes in the semis or finals every time but doesn't win a single tournament is to be preferred to a guy with several masters and slams hypothetically?

Tell me how many people you think would agree with your new standard for measuring performance and "holes"

Hint: no one with a brain who wasn't trolling would even consider that for a moment.

No one cared that Roger had made many finals of the French Open; he had a "hole on his resume" until he won it.
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post #66 of 126 (permalink) Old 12-29-2013, 12:00 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Are Djokovic and Nadal co-champions for 2013?

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Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
Who does the ATP ranking say was the best player in 2013?
ATP is not the only tennis's governing body. ITF, too, determines who is the best player, and in their opinion Djokovic is the best player in 2013. But both ATP and ITF, unlike you, take into account how deep players go in tournaments.

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Originally Posted by tribalfusion View Post
So a guy who finishes in the semis or finals every time but doesn't win a single tournament is to be preferred to a guy with several masters and slams hypothetically?
But Novak is not "a guy who finishes in the semis or finals every time but doesn't win a single tournament".

Last edited by Alaricus; 12-29-2013 at 12:02 PM.
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post #67 of 126 (permalink) Old 12-29-2013, 02:40 PM
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Re: Are Djokovic and Nadal co-champions for 2013?

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ATP is not the only tennis's governing body. ITF, too, determines who is the best player, and in their opinion Djokovic is the best player in 2013.
My understanding is that the ITF primarily takes into account performances in the Grand Slams and Davis Cup, which it runs. The ATP takes into account both and gives the Grand Slams double the number of points. Even with this extreme weighting Nadal finished the year no.1 with around 800 points. You have not suggested an alternative rankings system. Perhaps now would be a good time to do this.

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But both ATP and ITF, unlike you, take into account how deep players go in tournaments.
I have said that a mathematical ranking system cannot always capture the difference between "winning" an event, and coming runner up. I have not said that we should not take into account how deep players go in tournaments. I actually argue the opposite: "If we didn't have such a [ranking] system, either everyone would receive no points for finishing a "runner up", or they would all receive the same points - in both cases there would be no meaningful way of ranking "non-winners". "

In any case, this difference rarely matters, because winners receive an additional 40% of the available points, and it it is very hard to make up the difference by going deep in tournaments.

It is worth noting that players are not ranked based on how many "holes" they have in their resume. Losing early just means you forgo points which can be accumulated elsewhere, as Nadal did.

Last edited by Singularity; 12-29-2013 at 02:49 PM.
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post #68 of 126 (permalink) Old 12-29-2013, 05:46 PM
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Re: Are Djokovic and Nadal co-champions for 2013?

Injured Darcis destroys fully fit Nadal in Wimbledon first round. Sure sounds like a deserving Champion huh? VAMOS!
Nole's playing worse than he has for many years still got voted player of the year by ITF. Hilarious that Nadal fans were trying to make out his year was so great, it won't even be remembered as one of the top 15 years ever. Numbers don't lie. Some of them even said they thought it was Nadal's best year. That trolling backfired, cos it makes it look like they think this is as good as Dull can get. Intelligent move trolls

Not that ANY of his years can measure up to Nole's 2011, Fed's 2006, Laver's 69 etc. Just look at numbers and figures and say you disagree, make yourself look like an even more obvious trolls. Can't argue with facts

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post #69 of 126 (permalink) Old 12-29-2013, 06:08 PM
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Re: Are Djokovic and Nadal co-champions for 2013?

what coo-champions? there is only one Champ and his name is Djokovic. Rafito is a clown.
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post #70 of 126 (permalink) Old 12-29-2013, 06:58 PM
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Re: Are Djokovic and Nadal co-champions for 2013?

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what coo-champions? there is only one Champ and his name is Djokovic. Rafito is a clown.
You definitely have good first hand experience with the clown trade.
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post #71 of 126 (permalink) Old 12-29-2013, 07:01 PM
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Re: Are Djokovic and Nadal co-champions for 2013?

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Originally Posted by JoWilly View Post
Injured Darcis destroys fully fit Nadal in Wimbledon first round. Sure sounds like a deserving Champion huh? VAMOS!
Nole's playing worse than he has for many years still got voted player of the year by ITF. Hilarious that Nadal fans were trying to make out his year was so great, it won't even be remembered as one of the top 15 years ever. Numbers don't lie. Some of them even said they thought it was Nadal's best year. That trolling backfired, cos it makes it look like they think this is as good as Dull can get. Intelligent move trolls

Not that ANY of his years can measure up to Nole's 2011, Fed's 2006, Laver's 69 etc. Just look at numbers and figures and say you disagree, make yourself look like an even more obvious trolls. Can't argue with facts
You are more and more incoherent. Let's just be clear: you think 2 slams and 5 masters is not preferable to Novak's year.

It's simple and it doesn't require blathering about greatest years of all time or your interminable discussions dealing with fans of this or that player.

There isn't a player alive who would prefer Novak's year to Nadal's. You are welcome to your own "preferences" but we all know what you and the other trolls here really think and how your arguments would instantly be reversed were the results to be swapped.
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post #72 of 126 (permalink) Old 12-30-2013, 01:11 AM
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Re: Are Djokovic and Nadal co-champions for 2013?

Nadal was the player of the year, but Novak was a close second.

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post #73 of 126 (permalink) Old 12-30-2013, 01:43 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Are Djokovic and Nadal co-champions for 2013?

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Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
My understanding is that the ITF primarily takes into account performances in the Grand Slams and Davis Cup, which it runs. The ATP takes into account both and gives the Grand Slams double the number of points.
Both ITF and ATP take into account all tournaments but ITF gives more weight to the Grand Slams than ATP http://www.itftennis.com/news/163361.aspx

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You have not suggested an alternative rankings system. Perhaps now would be a good time to do this.
I suggest ITF's method to determine the best player.

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I have said that a mathematical ranking system cannot always capture the difference between "winning" an event, and coming runner up.
There is no perfect method.

Quote:
In any case, this difference rarely matters, because winners receive an additional 40% of the available points, and it it is very hard to make up the difference by going deep in tournaments.
But sometimes it does matter.

Quote:
It is worth noting that players are not ranked based on how many "holes" they have in their resume. Losing early just means you forgo points which can be accumulated elsewhere, as Nadal did.
I guess, Nadal would have been declared ITF World Champion if he did not have such poor results at Wimbledon and Australian Open.

Last edited by Alaricus; 12-30-2013 at 01:50 PM.
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post #74 of 126 (permalink) Old 12-30-2013, 02:08 PM
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Re: Are Djokovic and Nadal co-champions for 2013?

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Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
I suggest ITF's method to determine the best player.
What ranking system do the ITF use?

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There is no perfect method.
Then we agree.

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But sometimes it does matter.
Then we agree.
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post #75 of 126 (permalink) Old 12-31-2013, 12:32 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Are Djokovic and Nadal co-champions for 2013?

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What ranking system do the ITF use?
ITF gives more weight to Grand Slams than ATP.
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