"Speed up the courts and general court speed Thread" - Page 16 - MensTennisForums.com

View Poll Results: Vote for speeding up the courts or against it!
Speed up the courts 333 79.10%
Leave them as they are 88 20.90%
Voters: 421. You may not vote on this poll

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post #226 of 1940 (permalink) Old 12-12-2011, 10:16 PM
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Re: Speed up the Courts

slow ass courts need to go away - simple as that.
Leave Monte Carlo and some other dirt event for Nadull and his fellow spaniard bitches to play on and speed up all the hardcourt events. It is really not acceptable that the only fast hardcourt left is in Cincy and even freaking US Open is being turned into yet another IW/Miami disaster. And bring back 90's grass into Wimbledon too just to restore some credibility there as well

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post #227 of 1940 (permalink) Old 12-12-2011, 10:18 PM
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Re: Speed up the Courts

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
Yeah slower clay courts would hinder them.

Karin, it's not a personal attack, it's pulling up someone who is only interested in what benefits his favourite players instead of what would actually benefit the sport itself. They're the types the ATP cater to, the top players and their sycophants. That's why we'll never see any change.

Maybe I have a different opinion of what benefits the sport
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post #228 of 1940 (permalink) Old 12-12-2011, 10:23 PM
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Re: Speed up the Courts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt01 View Post
Maybe I have a different opinion of what benefits the sport
You've already admitted you're a despiser of fast court tennis and so you seem only interested in what caters to you instead of what caters for everyone.

Fast grass and indoors for serve and volleyers, medium hard courts all round for both attacking first-strike players and point-constructing baseliners to create contrasting match-ups, and super slow clay for brutal topspin gladiators as well as general baseline play.

It's not hard to understand this caters for the whole tennis community, but you won't see it cause you find fast courts boring.

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post #229 of 1940 (permalink) Old 12-12-2011, 10:28 PM
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Re: Speed up the Courts

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Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
You've already admitted you're a despiser of fast court tennis and so you seem only interested in what caters to you instead of what caters for everyone.

Fast grass and indoors for serve and volleyers, medium hard courts all round for both attacking first-strike players and point-constructing baseliners to create contrasting match-ups, and super slow clay for brutal topspin gladiators as well as general baseline play.

It's not hard to understand this caters for the whole tennis community, but you won't see it cause you find fast courts boring.

I don't find fast courts boring. I find all-service-mug-fests boring. It's okay to have variety in the different surfaces but the amount of fast courts should be limited. Medium paced HCs are the best, fairest courts for anyone but I admit the ATP has gone overboard with the homogenisation.
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post #230 of 1940 (permalink) Old 12-12-2011, 11:20 PM
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Re: Speed up the Courts

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The AO actually has been sped up since it changed from Rebound to Plexi so I don't know what you are talking about...
And Cincy is faster than medium pace.
The Australian Open still plays at a slow pace now after no longer using Rebound Ace. You cited Indian Wells and Miami as tournaments playing at medium pace, so in the context of my reply to you, I was obviously not referring to Cincinatti, but the back to back US Master Series tournaments (IW and Miami), which most definitely play at a slow pace.
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post #231 of 1940 (permalink) Old 12-13-2011, 01:10 AM
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Re: Speed up the Courts

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Originally Posted by Matt01 View Post
The AO actually has been sped up since it changed from Rebound to Plexi so I don't know what you are talking about...
And Cincy is faster than medium pace.
Cincinnati is DecoTurf II, like the US Open and generally acknowledged as being faster than either Rebound Ace or Plexicushion.

For the 1988 Australian Open (AO), the grass courts were replaced with the Rebound Ace surface. For the 2008 AO, the 20 year old Rebound Ace surface was replaced with the Plexicushion Prestige surface. This was probably due to its age, susceptibility to more extreme Australian summer heat (sticky surface), and perceived inconsistency of play as the older surface was said to have been faster during the day and noticeably slower at night. Consistency seems to have improved with the replacement according to the players. Has the speed changed? This appears to depend on whom one asks.

Officially, Rebound Ace Grand Slam and Plexicushion Prestige are both currently rated by ITF as Category 4, medium-fast (see here).

However, as with any of the acrylic courts, please be aware that the category classification compared to the actual conditions for any particular year can be manipulated (see here) by resurfacing. Adding more sand results in higher bounce and slower, less sand or none, lower bounce and faster. The balls in use are a factor as well. Some balls fluff up more when the court is more gritty and the resulting play slows.

For those who are interested, evaluate the court during the tournament from year to year to see if a trend develops in any one year. On average (don't just look at the top players), are more retriever types going deeper into the tournament, or are more aggressive players winning? Are winners and aces generally more difficult or easier to produce? One could also attempt to gauge the opinions of the players, but don't expect them to be completely unbiased.

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post #232 of 1940 (permalink) Old 12-13-2011, 01:24 AM
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Re: Speed up the Courts

masterclass, you don't need to write an essay to matt. It won't get through.

On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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post #233 of 1940 (permalink) Old 12-13-2011, 02:09 AM
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Re: Speed up the Courts

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masterclass, you don't need to write an essay to matt. It won't get through.
AJ - I generally try to treat people with respect until convinced otherwise.
Still, I'm new here, so perhaps there are some who will be treated with more respect than they deserve.
If people don't think what I write merits their attention, they are free to ignore it, no worries.

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post #234 of 1940 (permalink) Old 12-13-2011, 02:16 AM
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Re: Speed up the Courts

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Originally Posted by masterclass View Post
AJ - I generally try to treat people with respect until convinced otherwise.
Still, I'm new here, so perhaps there are some who will be treated with more respect than they deserve.
If people don't think what I write merits their attention, they are free to ignore it, no worries.

Regards,
masterclass
It's not what you write, in fact it's well constructed and thought out. That's the problem with this site though, lots of instant experts who have very little clue about the subject matter.

If someone doesn't want the courts sped up then actually construct a point. Same style on all on courts leads to tedium in the long run, just like the ace fests did.

On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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post #235 of 1940 (permalink) Old 12-13-2011, 02:30 AM
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Re: Speed up the Courts

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Originally Posted by Action Jackson View Post
...Same style on all on courts leads to tedium in the long run, just like the ace fests did.
Agreed.

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post #236 of 1940 (permalink) Old 12-13-2011, 04:46 AM
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Re: Speed up the Courts

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Originally Posted by masterclass View Post
Officially, Rebound Ace Grand Slam and Plexicushion Prestige are both currently rated by ITF as Category 4, medium-fast (see here).

Problem is, they don't have to follow that supposedly standard version of Plexicushion (they may in future, there are proposals heading that way, but that's another story).

Just look at "Gerflor Masters 1000" - medium/fast on the list, but it's what was used this year in Bercy. And last year. And the year before that. However, the courts actually measured as a 38 two years back (cat3 medium), 45 last year (cat5 fast), and at a guess were probably a medium/slow this year ..... all under the same name.

From the tournament director a couple of years back: Aus Open courts start life as a medium/slow, and edge into medium with a bit of play. That makes sense I think - a bit faster than Miami/IW, but slower than the US Open (normally!).

Last edited by philosophicalarf; 12-13-2011 at 04:52 AM.
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post #237 of 1940 (permalink) Old 12-13-2011, 11:51 AM
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Re: Speed up the Courts

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Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
Problem is, they don't have to follow that supposedly standard version of Plexicushion...
True, as mentioned in my earlier post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophicalarf
Just look at "Gerflor Masters 1000"
Thanks for this info. Two interesting articles about the Paris-Bercy surface are here and here.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the court pace and ball type were prominently displayed on the scoreboard at the tournament?
Court Pace: 43/Medium-Fast
Ball Type: 2/Medium

About approved ball types from the ITF:
3 different types of balls are approved for play under the Rules of Tennis, however:
a. Ball Type 1 (fast speed) is intended for play on slow pace court surfaces
b. Ball Type 2 (medium speed) is intended for play on medium-slow, medium and medium-fast
pace court surfaces
c. Ball Type 3 (slow speed) is intended for play on fast pace court surfaces

Note the use of "intended". A tournament is not required to use Ball Type 1 on a slow court, nor Ball Type 3 on a fast court.

Would it be more fair in terms of historical record credibility to hold to a non-deviating standard for each tournament for at least the slam tournaments and WTF? In theory I would say yes, and it should allow for a small variation - say 3 points. The problem is who would decide what the standards should be? ITF? ATP? Tournament directors?

With the following ITF Court Pace categories:
Slow: 0-29, Medium-Slow: 30 - 34, Medium: 35-39, Medium-Fast: 40-44, Fast: 45 and up
Here would be my standards (this could be a Poll question ):
Australian Open: CPR: 34-36 Ball Type: 2
Roland Garros: CPR: 26-28 Ball Type: 2
Wimbledon: CPR: 42-44 Ball Type: 2
US Open: CPR: 39-41 Ball Type: 2
World Tour Finals: CPR: 44-46 Ball Type: 2
Slam Average: = 36.25, Slam + WTF: 38

This establishes an overall average of medium pace while preserving variety among the tournaments.
The lead up tournaments to each slam, Masters included, should probably feature similar surface pace to each slam.
For even greater variety, I think one could tinker with the extreme ends (i.e. make Roland Garros slower and Wimbledon faster than above), but if the play gets too imbalanced it's not good either ("boring"). One could argue that the WTF should be closer to the average, but it goes against the nature of traditional fast indoor tennis. Oh, and off-topic, the WTF final match should be best of 5 sets with no tiebreaker in the 5th set.

I suggest keeping the ball types the same, because I believe players are most sensitive to ball changes. Play with the same ball type, no matter the surface and use a ball that will generally keep its rating on the particular surface until change of balls.

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post #238 of 1940 (permalink) Old 12-13-2011, 12:11 PM
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Re: Speed up the Courts

Hey Mr. Masterclass, what categories and how fast are IW and Miami?


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masterclass, you don't need to write an essay to matt. It won't get through.

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post #239 of 1940 (permalink) Old 12-13-2011, 03:05 PM
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Re: Speed up the Courts

The balls are all type2 now - although 1 and 3 are still formally in the rules, only ITF-authorised balls are allowed in competition, and those are all type2 (plus altitude balls, and the various junior "stage" balls). That's been the case since about 2002, when the whole experiment was abandoned - it appears they managed to slow tennis as intended solely with the surfaces, so the need for larger balls wasn't there (and the type3s would be comic, they really are beachballs).

It would indeed be nice if CPR was posted publically :-) That might lead to misunderstandings though - the balls still make a difference as you say, and the environment. For example, Winston-Salem is 300m higher and average 4C hotter than US Open, which has the combined effect of 5% less air resistance.

Last edited by philosophicalarf; 12-13-2011 at 04:27 PM.
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post #240 of 1940 (permalink) Old 12-13-2011, 11:44 PM
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Re: Speed up the Courts

Quote:
Originally Posted by masterclass View Post
AJ - I generally try to treat people with respect until convinced otherwise.
Still, I'm new here, so perhaps there are some who will be treated with more respect than they deserve.
If people don't think what I write merits their attention, they are free to ignore it, no worries.

Regards,
masterclass
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Your posts are AMAZING. Don`t feel threatened by the masses and go on
I do really enjoy to read your posts and threads

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