"Speed up the courts and general court speed Thread" - Page 117 - MensTennisForums.com
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post #1741 of 1970 (permalink) Old 11-02-2013, 02:17 PM
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Re: "Speed up the courts and general court speed Thread"

The courts are not getting slower, the players are faster.
A friend of mine who is actually a great Nadal hater and likes players like Blake, Youzhny, Wawrinka and a fan of attacking and risk tennis says he is disgusted to see the surfaces playing so fast as it is killing tennis. He used to be long time ago an Agassi fan maybe that's why. But indeed if I look to old matches I don't see any noticeable difference except the players are more awkward during the old days.

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post #1742 of 1970 (permalink) Old 11-02-2013, 02:26 PM
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Re: "Speed up the courts and general court speed Thread"

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Originally Posted by Foxy View Post
The courts are not getting slower, the players are faster.
A friend of mine who is actually a great Nadal hater and likes players like Blake, Youzhny, Wawrinka and a fan of attacking and risk tennis says he is disgusted to see the surfaces playing so fast as it is killing tennis. He used to be long time ago an Agassi fan maybe that's why. But indeed if I look to old matches I don't see any noticeable difference except the players are more awkward during the old days.


I hope for your "friends" sake that you did indeed make this person up.
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post #1743 of 1970 (permalink) Old 11-02-2013, 02:47 PM
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Re: "Speed up the courts and general court speed Thread"

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Not sure how much of it is related to balls either. I know that they used the Penn ATP (and with the Masters Series logo on for Masters Series events) balls before, which I played with and thought were pretty fast balls. I don't think the Wilson US Open's have changed. The Wimbledon Slazenger balls have been big and slow for quite some time and the Australian Open changed to Slazenger in 2008 with the surface change. Gasquet complained about these balls and said it was difficult to generate power.
Don't forget the interaction between the type of ball and the type of surface. No too long ago some player tweeted a new ball after a 20 shot rally. It was incredibly fluffed up. I think this was at one of the American HC events.

Something has happened, either if it's the balls or the surface or how the courts affect the balls, at some point conditions were order of magnitude slower than what was happening years ago. I really doubt it that anyone came out and talked about this from the side of people that have control over it. Just like they do with their doping testing and whatnot.
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post #1744 of 1970 (permalink) Old 11-02-2013, 02:49 PM
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Re: "Speed up the courts and general court speed Thread"

It's just impossible that the players (humans) are so much faster now.
They are somewhat faster indeed, but not as much that they can make a medium fast court look slow by running at the balls. LOL

If humans had really got so much faster in such a short time (which is not the case), then we couldn't avoid talking about doping when discussing the reasons.

...And as somebody mentioned, the weight of the balls is also a factor and can explain why some tournaments insist: "No, we didn't slow down our courts, no no."
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post #1745 of 1970 (permalink) Old 11-02-2013, 03:40 PM
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Re: "Speed up the courts and general court speed Thread"

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I can see what you mean.

If you've watched enough tennis, you can look past that. It's all about the way the ball reacts after contact relative to the spin applied.

I watched 20 minutes or so from Arazi/Philippoussis at the 2004 Australian Open a few days ago. The difference is quite remarkable. There's no way at all that the rebound ace of 2004 would be classed as medium/slow today.
I dunno about 2004, but Rebound Ace the year before the switch was measured as a 35 under the old surface pace rating system. That translates to a medium under the current system.

The balls: they got larger across the board in the second half of last decade (a while back I collected a series of occasional measurements by academic sources from the mid 90s onwards). The rules allow a range of 6.54-6.86cm diameter, only approx a +3.5% change - so small that you couldn't actually see it visually. However at the pro level it means quite a few less mph when the ball reaches the other end, as drag is dependent on cross-sectional area and radius/diameter are squared in that equation (thus +3.5% diameter means +7.1% drag).

As someone else said, slower surfaces do mean balls fluff up a lot more now though - Wilson UO is a particular culprit. As far as I know that's not been measured in any published research (there's less of that on the academic side now, a lot of it was initiated/funded due to a perceived need to quantify tennis in the late 90s).
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post #1746 of 1970 (permalink) Old 11-02-2013, 04:15 PM
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Re: "Speed up the courts and general court speed Thread"

I wonder if the AO will be faster next year considering the tournament director their is in support of faster courts..

If it's purely physical and you're watching someone playing six-hour matches over and over and showing no signs of being tired, you'd look at that. - Sir Andrew Barron Murray OBE
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post #1747 of 1970 (permalink) Old 11-02-2013, 04:26 PM
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Re: "Speed up the courts and general court speed Thread"

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I dunno about 2004, but Rebound Ace the year before the switch was measured as a 35 under the old surface pace rating system. That translates to a medium under the current system.

The balls: they got larger across the board in the second half of last decade (a while back I collected a series of occasional measurements by academic sources from the mid 90s onwards). The rules allow a range of 6.54-6.86cm diameter, only approx a +3.5% change - so small that you couldn't actually see it visually. However at the pro level it means quite a few less mph when the ball reaches the other end, as drag is dependent on cross-sectional area and radius/diameter are squared in that equation (thus +3.5% diameter means +7.1% drag).

As someone else said, slower surfaces do mean balls fluff up a lot more now though - Wilson UO is a particular culprit. As far as I know that's not been measured in any published research (there's less of that on the academic side now, a lot of it was initiated/funded due to a perceived need to quantify tennis in the late 90s).
Where do you find the journals? Any particular sites like scholar, springerlink, sciencedirect etc. that is good for tennis? Most of the stuff I've found for work I've recently been doing is mainly prior to 2000, I've been struggling to find literature post 2000. The area I've been looking into is stuff about tactical play; mainly shot selection and the correlations to rally length and coaching implications etc.

Why is it that the Slazenger Wimbledon balls from around 2003 (less so now, they look about the same size but they're still heavier than say US Open's) were indeed visibly bigger? It wasn't my mind playing tricks on me, those balls were absolutely bigger.

I think Li Ching Yuen is referring to what Robert Lindstedt posted on his blog that time. That is definitely a factor, more so for the recreational player or lower level tournaments as most pro tournaments would adopt the most suitable ball. There've been times I've played and the balls are wrecked within an hour and playing totally different within 10 minutes. That tends to happen on grittier surfaces, like on crappy concrete hardcourts

I think the nicest balls I've used are the Wilson double core balls, they seem to have prolonged "feel". Some balls are crap within no time, the US Open's are absolutely useless.

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post #1748 of 1970 (permalink) Old 11-03-2013, 09:39 AM
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Re: "Speed up the courts and general court speed Thread"

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Shanghai Tournament official admits that they have fastened up the courts of this year edition of Masters 1000:



http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/02/sp...ng-future.html

So ok, people were saying Nadal would not have prayer in theses conditions if they did..It took a DelGoatro circa 2009 to beat him there, and even then, he had his chances to possibly take to a deciding third set..
So players are defending better than ever but any problem cannot be found.

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post #1749 of 1970 (permalink) Old 11-04-2013, 06:14 PM
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Re: "Speed up the courts and general court speed Thread"

So Fed's already been saying London plays slower than Bercy
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post #1750 of 1970 (permalink) Old 11-04-2013, 08:28 PM
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Re: "Speed up the courts and general court speed Thread"

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So Fed's already been saying London plays slower than Bercy
And the bounce is so high this year ! Nadal got an easy draw AND a surface that suits him...
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post #1751 of 1970 (permalink) Old 11-04-2013, 09:09 PM
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Re: "Speed up the courts and general court speed Thread"

Players are not faster than they were 10 years ago. Better fitness and endurance, probably (though Lendl once he committed himself to fitness is still one of the all-time best from a fitness POV). Some players like Rafa, Nole, Murray, and even prime Fed were and are extremely quick, but the way shots are hit is different now - more spin - so guys also have a little more time to get to the balls since they kick up higher. Couple that with slower surfaces, and guys with better fitness, and that's contributed a lot to the state of the game right now.

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post #1752 of 1970 (permalink) Old 11-04-2013, 09:43 PM
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Re: "Speed up the courts and general court speed Thread"

how is O2???



The best player spin and speed together







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post #1753 of 1970 (permalink) Old 11-04-2013, 09:44 PM
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Re: "Speed up the courts and general court speed Thread"

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And the bounce is so high this year ! Nadal got an easy draw AND a surface that suits him...
well carpet is away thats right



The best player spin and speed together







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post #1754 of 1970 (permalink) Old 11-05-2013, 02:19 AM
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Re: "Speed up the courts and general court speed Thread"

Bounces like hell.
Seems like they really want Nadal to win it.
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post #1755 of 1970 (permalink) Old 11-05-2013, 02:27 AM
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Re: "Speed up the courts and general court speed Thread"

The Bounce in 2012: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66X0vluTWlE
The Bounce in 2013:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYW0kf7tU8o
The difference can be seen quite easily
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