Endless Djokovic-Nadal debates. Will SOG dominate Nadal like 2011? - Page 70 - MensTennisForums.com

View Poll Results: Djokovic will dominate nadal like 2011?
Yes. ( X-0 ) 12 24.00%
No. 23 46.00%
Yes but lesser extent. ( X- 1or2 ) 15 30.00%
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post #1036 of 1370 (permalink) Old 12-09-2012, 09:49 AM
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Re: Could Nole 2.0's domination of Nadal be forgotten?

It's ok I'll just write it down.



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post #1037 of 1370 (permalink) Old 12-09-2012, 11:08 AM
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Re: Could Nole 2.0's domination of Nadal be forgotten?

Unless we are talking about those who follow few tennis matches in a year, and can barely name more than two or three players, then it's unlikely it will be forgotten.

Nadal had his best ever year and everybody were talking about Rafa-slam and his ensuing domination; that his domination stopped before it even started, that he was beaten across all surfaces not winning a single set on clay, and that he couldn't hold #1 longer than 6 months despite being 6000+ points ahead and winning a slam, will most likely always stand in the history books.

“There’s so many athletes, tennis players around the world,” he continued, trying to put his life into some kind of perspective, “they want to be the best in what they do. They want to succeed. Many of them, they don’t succeed in the end. I’m fortunate to have this opportunity and succeed.”
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post #1038 of 1370 (permalink) Old 12-09-2012, 11:11 AM
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Re: Could Nole 2.0's domination of Nadal be forgotten?

Djokovic leads 9-3 against Nadal on outdoor hardcourts.
12-2 for Nadal on clay, 2-1 for Nadal on grass, 2-2 on indoor hardcourts.

Djokovic has a big advantage on outdoor hardcourts, Nadal leads easily on clay. On the two others surfaces, it's very close.

Nole will probably finish his career with a positive H2H vs Rafa, if he plays against him more often on hard.
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post #1039 of 1370 (permalink) Old 12-09-2012, 11:31 AM
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Re: Could Nole 2.0's domination of Nadal be forgotten?

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Originally Posted by Federer-Fan View Post
Djokovic leads 9-3 against Nadal on outdoor hardcourts.
12-2 for Nadal on clay, 2-1 for Nadal on grass, 2-2 on indoor hardcourts.

Djokovic has a big advantage on outdoor hardcourts, Nadal leads easily on clay. On the two others surfaces, it's very close.

Nole will probably finish his career with a positive H2H vs Rafa, if he plays against him more often on hard.
Unfortunately, I think Nadal will not too often get far in non-clay tournaments to face Djokovic.

Last edited by atennisfan; 12-09-2012 at 03:15 PM.
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post #1040 of 1370 (permalink) Old 12-09-2012, 11:45 AM
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Re: Could Nole 2.0's domination of Nadal be forgotten?

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Unfortunately, I think Nadal will not too often get far in non-clay tournaments to face Nadal.
Another huge hole in Rafa's resume, he has never gotten far enough in a tournament to face himself, not even on clay.

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post #1041 of 1370 (permalink) Old 12-09-2012, 11:59 AM
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Re: Could Nole 2.0's domination of Nadal be forgotten?

Nope, this glorious spanking streak will be remembered forever.

What's the H2H at the slams? That will not be forgotten. H2H at the slams tells the real story. Specially if Nole ends up with the superior H2H at the slams when all is said and done.
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post #1042 of 1370 (permalink) Old 12-09-2012, 12:02 PM
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Re: Could Nole 2.0's domination of Nadal be forgotten?

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Nope, this glorious spanking streak will be remembered forever.

What's the H2H at the slams? That will not be forgotten. H2H at the slams tells the real story. Specially if Nole ends up with the superior H2H a the slams when all is said and done.
See my post below, it's 6-3 to Rafa. And I fully agree that the H2H at slams is much more important. Only, why would it only tell the real story if Nole ends up with a better H2H? Hating at it's best

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We're back to disregarding clay again are we?

Rafa just dominates everyone overall, there's no denying it. If you want even more telling numbers, look at slam H2H.

8-2 vs. Federer (my favourite, his only victories being in 06 and 07 when Nadal was still learning on grass )
6-3 vs. Djokovic
6-2 vs. Murray (But, but only because of clay OH NO, they only played ONCE on clay)
2-1 vs. Del Potro (these two need to meet more)
2-2 vs. Ferrer (Vultured obviously)
3-0 vs. Berdych
1-1 vs. Tsonga

His only ties are with guys he hasn't met very often. If you meet him in a bigger series, you're doomed.

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post #1043 of 1370 (permalink) Old 12-09-2012, 12:39 PM
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Re: Could Nole 2.0's domination of Nadal be forgotten?

Well, clay is relevant if you're talking about Nadal's chances at the FO. For the other 3/4 grand slams it's best to use the per surface H2H (which would still put Nadal far ahead of Murray, for example, because he's just been the better player).
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post #1044 of 1370 (permalink) Old 12-09-2012, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSMnadal View Post
We're back to disregarding clay again are we?

Rafa just dominates everyone overall, there's no denying it. If you want even more telling numbers, look at slam H2H.

8-2 vs. Federer (my favourite, his only victories being in 06 and 07 when Nadal was still learning on grass )
6-3 vs. Djokovic
6-2 vs. Murray (But, but only because of clay OH NO, they only played ONCE on clay)
2-1 vs. Del Potro (these two need to meet more)
2-2 vs. Ferrer (Vultured obviously)
3-0 vs. Berdych
1-1 vs. Tsonga

His only ties are with guys he hasn't met very often. If you meet him in a bigger series, you're doomed.
I'm not disregarding clay, I'm making the point that Nadal's head to head records tend to get worse when he's playing best. I know he has positive head to heads with everyone, I'm making the point that he tends not to make it to better players when he's playing worse outside clay



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Last edited by emotion; 12-09-2012 at 01:04 PM.
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post #1045 of 1370 (permalink) Old 12-09-2012, 12:56 PM
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Re: Could Nole 2.0's domination of Nadal be forgotten?

Clay's important for DjokerNadal matches, purely because they are higher standard than NadalFrauderer & DjokerFrauderer. Djoker & Nadal have to feel and think awfully to wind up losing to Smugerer.
Smugerer plays nothing special on clay for a decade. Sampras could beat better clay opponents in the 1990s; he didn't need an injured clay GOAT to get an easy draw.
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post #1046 of 1370 (permalink) Old 12-09-2012, 09:01 PM
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Failya at it again. Posting three times about federer in a thread about Nole and Rafa.

Oh, but you can't call it obsession, or he gets angry.


Back on topic, nobody will forget Nole's domination of the whole tour (including Nadal) in 2011, but people will also remember how Rafa was strong enough to recover and win three straight matches over Nole. Can't wait to see how the rivalry unfolds in 2013...

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post #1047 of 1370 (permalink) Old 12-10-2012, 09:19 AM
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Re: Could Nole 2.0's domination of Nadal be forgotten?

Nadal beat Djokovic in GS in French Open 2006 and Wimbledon 2007, when Djokovic was injured. Without that, it's 4-3 in favor of Nadal (3-1 for Djokovic without clay).
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post #1048 of 1370 (permalink) Old 12-11-2012, 07:41 PM
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Re: Could Nole 2.0's domination of Nadal be forgotten?

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Originally Posted by djokovicgonzalez View Post
Non-Nadal is perspective of these records
9-6 Federer
5-9 Murray (but won the 1st four when Murray was young and a lot of that is from grass where he has never lost to Murray)
11-8 Djokovic
3-3 Ferrer
3-8 Berdych (only truly horrible one)
4-1 Hewitt (But Hewitt got pre-2005 Nadal twice)
3-5 del Potro (Nadal got 1st 3)


If you make Murray 5-5, del Potro 3-2, and Hewitt 2-1 to take out when they were just starting, 36-33. If you do this and eliminate Berdych (who is probably the worst of these players anyway and if you think it's Ferrer instead, taking out both him and TBerd doesn't change anything), who can't play Nadal, 33-25

Something that's often said about Nadal is he has excellent records against his competition. But the reason is his competition gets to him more often on his best surface than he does on theirs. Except Berdych. Berdych is just hopeless
It's 8-6 Federer and 12-7 Djokovic.
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post #1049 of 1370 (permalink) Old 12-12-2012, 06:17 AM
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Re: Could Nole 2.0's domination of Nadal be forgotten?

it won't be forgotten but the reality is it is sort of irrelevant, it's better to be the best of loser's than the worst. Djokovic was beating everyone on tour, not just Nadal, it's just the matter of Nadal being second best on tour that season and being a little better than the rest of the tour but at the time a little worse than Djokovic

Nadal certainly was in a funk and Djokovic was certainly playing very well

if Nadal were to win a few more matches in a row against Djokovic though, especially if they were in grand slams, then the streak would sort of become irrelevant, and he would lead the H2H too dramatically for anyone to claim Djokovics 7 in a row as anything dramatically telling

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post #1050 of 1370 (permalink) Old 12-12-2012, 06:21 AM
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Re: Could Nole 2.0's domination of Nadal be forgotten?

Quote:
Originally Posted by djokovicgonzalez View Post
Non-Nadal is perspective of these records
9-6 Federer
5-9 Murray (but won the 1st four when Murray was young and a lot of that is from grass where he has never lost to Murray)
11-8 Djokovic
3-3 Ferrer
3-8 Berdych (only truly horrible one)
4-1 Hewitt (But Hewitt got pre-2005 Nadal twice)
3-5 del Potro (Nadal got 1st 3)


If you make Murray 5-5, del Potro 3-2, and Hewitt 2-1 to take out when they were just starting, 36-33. If you do this and eliminate Berdych (who is probably the worst of these players anyway and if you think it's Ferrer instead, taking out both him and TBerd doesn't change anything), who can't play Nadal, 33-25

Something that's often said about Nadal is he has excellent records against his competition. But the reason is his competition gets to him more often on his best surface than he does on theirs. Except Berdych. Berdych is just hopeless
this is dumb, if you take Djokovic and erase his wins from slow hard court against his main rivals, or Federer's wins against his rivals at places like Wimbledon, then suddenly they would also have even worse records

Clay is a huge part of tennis, always has been, there are plenty of tournaments on this surface and even a Grand Slam. it's not Nadal's responsibility to make finals on certain surfaces to give his rivals a chance at evening the H2H

the reality is Nadal is impressive as far as W-L against other players and even if you remove the clay that makes him have dramatically better H2H's, he still even or at a winning percentage against the majority of his rivals

that's pretty incredible

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