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post #46 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-03-2013, 11:30 AM
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Re: Who are the Clay court specialists?

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And in what are you basing this assumption?

I would choose Delpo any day for a clay match. Except if it was RG final.
On Del Potro being the better player and having a much more suitable game to upset Nole and the belief - odds are even if Ferrer got close to pulling the upset, he'd end up choking it. No reason he'd get close anyway as Nole isn't troubled by him in the slighest ever since he became the dominant player back in 2011.

Remember their 2011 match at RG months mere months after JMDP returned to the tour, Delpo was more than matching Nole before the match was interrupted due to lack of natural light; I'm pretty sure Novak will have his hands full if he faces JMDP at RG, especially as he can't defend against his power shots as effectively as on a hardcourt.

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Originally Posted by Surcouf View Post
This.

Last time they played on clay, Djokovic barely escaped in three and then beat Nadal in two. Ferrer is a hard match up for Djokovic on clay. On Hardcourt, he is a cakewalk though.

Mark Lenders, I know you are a big Del Potro fan and that you dislike Ferrer, but Ferrer is, without any debate,better than Del Potro on clay. By titles won, by H2H, by SF and F reached and overall results.
After 'barely escaping' Ferrer, Djokovic had an even closer call against Bellucci, I suppose Thomaz is also a bigger threat for Djokovic than Del Potro, eh?

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Suicide Tennis (5): Wimbledon 2014, World Tour Finals 2015, Madrid 2015, Kuala Lumpur 2014 and Metz 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 WTF, 1 Masters 1000, 2 ATP 250; 2 finals lost

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Tennis Tipping (3): Veneza and Todi 2014 (with vn01), Knoxville 2015 (with Redkop) - 3 challengers; 7 finals lost
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post #47 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-03-2013, 11:30 AM
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Re: Who are the Clay court specialists?

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1)


Ever since Djokovic became the dominant player in tennis, Ferrer has become like an annoying mosquito that he swats aside with ease. The only exception to this is WTF 2011, where Djokovic was burnt out after one of the best seasons in the Open Era and countless wars of attrition against Nadal.
You either don't read or simply ignore facts which don't comport with your argument such as it is.

Fact: Ferrer played Djokovic very tough in Djokovic's best season and Djokovic did not "swat him away like an annoying mosquito;" he won in 3 sets and worked hard to do it. Anything less than that level and Ferrer won in the past. We will see what happens this season perhaps.

Fact: Ferrer has played the ENTIRE FIELD better than Del Potro has on clay. You might as well say Gulbis is a better clay courter than Djokovic based on a short time frame where he played Federer and Nadal well on it but there is more to tennis than a handful of matches where you play lights out and/or the other guy is not playing his best.

And last but not least: you have a pathological hatred of Ferrer which prevents you from analyzing this with anything like objectivity.
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post #48 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-03-2013, 11:36 AM
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Re: Who are the Clay court specialists?

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Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
On Del Potro being the better player and having a much more suitable game to upset Nole and the belief - odds are even if Ferrer got close to pulling the upset, he'd end up choking it. No reason he'd get close anyway as Nole isn't troubled by him in the slighest ever since he became the dominant player back in 2011.

Remember their 2011 match at RG months mere months after JMDP returned to the tour, Delpo was more than matching Nole before the match was interrupted due to lack of natural light; I'm pretty sure Novak will have his hands full if he faces JMDP at RG, especially as he can't defend against his power shots as effectively as on a hardcourt.
You mean for a set?

I am not going to try to explain why and how you're wrong by claiming that Delpo is generally a bigger threat on clay than Ferrer beause others here are trying to show you the light.

You know very well that I dislike Ferrer and I would much rather watch Delpo play than him, but one needs to be rational and fair. In this case you are not.
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post #49 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-03-2013, 11:37 AM
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Re: Who are the Clay court specialists?

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After 'barely escaping' Ferrer, Djokovic had an even closer call against Bellucci, I suppose Thomaz is also a bigger threat for Djokovic than Del Potro, eh?
Belluci was playing extremely well at that tournament if you recall the things exactly how they happened.

Last season, Del Potro lost to Berdych, Tsonga and Federer in its three clay tournaments. Unimpressive.

What is Del Potro best win on that surface? An Estoril final against Gasquet?
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post #50 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-03-2013, 11:37 AM
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Re: Who are the Clay court specialists?

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You either don't read or simply ignore facts which don't comport with your argument such as it is.

Fact: Ferrer played Djokovic very tough in Djokovic's best season and Djokovic did not "swat him away like an annoying mosquito;" he won in 3 sets and worked hard to do it. Anything less than that level and Ferrer won in the past. We will see what happens this season perhaps.

Fact: Ferrer has played the ENTIRE FIELD better than Del Potro has on clay. You might as well say Gulbis is a better clay courter than Djokovic based on a short time frame where he played Federer and Nadal well on it but there is more to tennis than a handful of matches where you play lights out and/or the other guy is not playing his best.

And last but not least: you have a pathological hatred of Ferrer which prevents you from analyzing this with anything like objectivity.
Those are not facts at all. Djokovic struggled even more vs Bellucci in the following round - he was actually close to losing unlike vs Ferrer where he was never in a losing position - doesn't mean Bellucci is a bigger threat to him.

Who exactly has Ferrer managed to beat on clay lately than Del Potro hasn't? He reached semis last year because he was lucky enough to avoid Federer, Nadal and Djokovic, that's all.

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You mean for a set?

I am not going to try to explain why and how you're wrong by claiming that Delpo is generally a bigger threat on clay than Ferrer beause others here are trying to show you the light.

You know very well that I dislike Ferrer and I would much rather watch Delpo play than him, but one needs to be rational and fair. In this case you are not.
I'm talking about right now. Djokovic will be in much bigger danger of losing at RG if his opponent is Del Potro than if it is Ferrer, an evident truth that I'm sure betting odds will reflect.

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Suicide Tennis (5): Wimbledon 2014, World Tour Finals 2015, Madrid 2015, Kuala Lumpur 2014 and Metz 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 WTF, 1 Masters 1000, 2 ATP 250; 2 finals lost

Fill-in-the-Draw (3): US Open 2014, Rotterdam 2013 and Geneva 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 ATP 500 and 1 ATP 250

Tennis Tipping (3): Veneza and Todi 2014 (with vn01), Knoxville 2015 (with Redkop) - 3 challengers; 7 finals lost
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post #51 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-03-2013, 11:39 AM
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Re: Who are the Clay court specialists?

Oh and as for Belluci, I remember that one very well, Belluci played out of his mind, unbelievable effort.
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post #52 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-03-2013, 11:42 AM
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Re: Who are the Clay court specialists?

ferrer is not, I repeat not, a clay specialist, not even close

On Murray

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He probably just hangs about in 2nd place protecting himself with 3 bananas whilst waiting for the person in the lead to get blue shelled.
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Nadull was not injured. The reason he was moving like shit near the end of the third set is because of the depression of knowing your opponent is superior in all departments.

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post #53 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-03-2013, 11:43 AM
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Re: Who are the Clay court specialists?

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ferrer is not, I repeat not, a clay specialist, not even close
He isn't a clay specialist, but his best surface is clay and he is the 4th player in the world on that surface in term of general level of play (and not rankings points).
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post #54 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-03-2013, 11:44 AM
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Re: Who are the Clay court specialists?

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Belluci was playing extremely well at that tournament if you recall the things exactly how they happened.

Last season, Del Potro lost to Berdych, Tsonga and Federer in its three clay tournaments. Unimpressive.

What is Del Potro best win on that surface? An Estoril final against Gasquet?
I do recall it and I like Bellucci, but pushing Djokovic there does not mean he's a big threat to him at Roland Garros. Much like Ferrer, he's a mental midget who is very unlikely to be able to close things out vs someone like Djokovic at a Slam even if he gets into a winning position. This would be reason alone for Del Potro to be a bigger threat (as if the differences in their games weren't enough) than Ferrer, he's actually mentally strong enough to close things out.

MTF games titles:

Suicide Tennis (5): Wimbledon 2014, World Tour Finals 2015, Madrid 2015, Kuala Lumpur 2014 and Metz 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 WTF, 1 Masters 1000, 2 ATP 250; 2 finals lost

Fill-in-the-Draw (3): US Open 2014, Rotterdam 2013 and Geneva 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 ATP 500 and 1 ATP 250

Tennis Tipping (3): Veneza and Todi 2014 (with vn01), Knoxville 2015 (with Redkop) - 3 challengers; 7 finals lost
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post #55 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-03-2013, 11:46 AM
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Re: Who are the Clay court specialists?

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Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
I do recall it and I like Bellucci, but pushing Djokovic there does not mean he's a big threat to him at Roland Garros. Much like Ferrer, he's a mental midget who is very unlikely to be able to close things out vs someone like Djokovic at a Slam even if he gets into a winning position. This would be reason alone for Del Potro to be a bigger threat (as if the differences in their games weren't enough) than Ferrer, he's actually mentally strong enough to close things out.
Bigger threat, to Federer yes, to Djokovic maybe (I disagree) but overall, that's not how you say that one player is better than another on a surface.
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post #56 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-03-2013, 11:47 AM
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Re: Who are the Clay court specialists?

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He isn't a clay specialist, but his best surface is clay and he is the 4th player in the world on that surface in term of general level of play (and not rankings points).
This is where you lose a bit of credibility. Better in general level of play and not ranking points? What is that? Not sure that makes much sense, and you would have trouble finding arguments to support that.
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post #57 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-03-2013, 11:48 AM
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Re: Who are the Clay court specialists?

All the surfaces these days are just different shades of clay, so in a way, everyone is a clay-court specialist.
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post #58 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-03-2013, 11:48 AM
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Re: Who are the Clay court specialists?

I don't about you guys, but I know of someone whose majority of wins are on dirt.

And his fans are making a case of him as the GOAT

Last edited by se7en; 04-03-2013 at 11:54 AM.
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post #59 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-03-2013, 11:50 AM
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Re: Who are the Clay court specialists?

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Originally Posted by arm View Post
This is where you lose a bit of credibility. Better in general level of play and not ranking points? What is that? Not sure that makes much sense, and you would have trouble finding arguments to support that.
I think that Ferrer is the fourth best player due to his clay abilities. I don't think he is the fourth best player on HC. But that's another debate.
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post #60 of 129 (permalink) Old 04-03-2013, 11:51 AM
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Re: Who are the Clay court specialists?

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This is where you lose a bit of credibility. Better in general level of play and not ranking points? What is that? Not sure that makes much sense, and you would have trouble finding arguments to support that.
Better level of play is vastly different from ranking points. As a Djokovic fan, you should know this better than most as he kept a top 4 ranking for like a year without beating any top 10 player for 10 months in 2010, ahead of players who were getting much bigger wins simply because his seeding allowed him to - he could afford to play at #8-10 level and still be top 4. The seeding system in tennis is ridiculously protective of top players, more so than in any other sport, and does generate a lot of situations where level of play is not reflected in the rankings.

I'll actually probably start a thread about this later, I'm often baffled how people believe rankings reflect level of play. Here's a riddle: imagine Wawrinka plays at #4 level the entire year and Murray play at #7 level, who will finish the year ranked higher?

MTF games titles:

Suicide Tennis (5): Wimbledon 2014, World Tour Finals 2015, Madrid 2015, Kuala Lumpur 2014 and Metz 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 WTF, 1 Masters 1000, 2 ATP 250; 2 finals lost

Fill-in-the-Draw (3): US Open 2014, Rotterdam 2013 and Geneva 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 ATP 500 and 1 ATP 250

Tennis Tipping (3): Veneza and Todi 2014 (with vn01), Knoxville 2015 (with Redkop) - 3 challengers; 7 finals lost

Last edited by Mark Lenders; 04-03-2013 at 11:59 AM.
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