Appreciation of the unappreciated (e.g. 'vulturing' and 'pushing') - MensTennisForums.com

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post #1 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-26-2013, 02:43 AM Thread Starter
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Appreciation of the unappreciated (e.g. 'vulturing' and 'pushing')

Am I the only one on this board who actually appreciates these things?

Take Zemlja. Mid last year he was 25 years old and never been in the top 100. He decides to enter three consecutive Chinese Challengers (having never played a Challenger there previously) and wins two. This gives him confidence and straight afterwards he qualifies and makes the 3rd round of the US Open. This propels him into the top 100 and before you know it he's made an ATP final. This year he's a direct acceptance into every event he's entered (all tour level) and in comes the money. I admire this creative scheduling and think those Chinese Challengers may have progressed his career faster than other scheduling choices (such as playing ATP qualifying in Europe or the USA).

I also appreciate the motivation and dedication it requires to be at your best at smaller events.

'Pushing' is not as easy as some posters make it out to be and I admire the skill of some 'pushers'. It requires patience, endurance and anticipation. It provides another array of match ups, some of which are fascinating such as Simon-Federer. Also kudos to those who can push when the situation calls for it, such as Murray.

Do you also appreciate these things (even a little)? And which other generally unappreciated skills do you appreciate?

Sorry to put everything in inverted commas.

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I think Kokkinakis will be the most successful player born in the 90s.

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post #2 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-26-2013, 02:48 AM
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Re: Appreciation of the unappreciated (e.g. 'vulturing' and 'pushing')

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Originally Posted by StatRacket View Post
Am I the only one on this board who actually appreciates these things?

Take Ferrer. He could choose to only play the bigger events, hence probably get pushed down the rankings. This will lower his seedings and have a flow on effect. Instead he schedules intelligently to maximise his prize money and ranking (which is the primary goal of most tennis professionals) and confidence for that matter. It takes skill to select the best schedule and he seems to do just that. He knows where he stands with the rest of the top 5 and works around that.
'Vulturing' by players lower down the rankings makes even more sense sometimes. I also appreciate the motivation and dedication it requires to be at your best at smaller events.

'Pushing' is not as easy as some posters make it out to be and I admire the skill of some 'pushers'. It requires patience, endurance and anticipation. It provides another array of match ups, some of which are fascinating such as Simon-Federer. Also kudos to those who can push when the situation calls for it, such as Murray.

Do you also appreciate these things (even a little)? And which other generally unappreciated skills do you appreciate?

Sorry to put everything in inverted commas.
I do appreciate them.

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post #3 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-26-2013, 02:53 AM
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Re: Appreciation of the unappreciated (e.g. 'vulturing' and 'pushing')

I don't appreciate them and appreciate the terms even less.

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post #4 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-26-2013, 02:54 AM
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Don't really appreciate it, but these guys make good mug filters to give an indication if other players are ready for the big boys. The only thing I dislike is vultures overstepping their bounds and getting higher rank than should be allowed. Take Ferrer for example. Struggles to win games against Nadal and yet still ranked higher. They make a good target practice for top guys to hone their skills on so they are useful in that regard


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post #5 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-26-2013, 02:57 AM
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Re: Appreciation of the unappreciated (e.g. 'vulturing' and 'pushing')

Quote:
Originally Posted by StatRacket View Post
Am I the only one on this board who actually appreciates these things?

Take Ferrer. He could choose to only play the bigger events, hence probably get pushed down the rankings. This will lower his seedings and have a flow on effect. Instead he schedules intelligently to maximise his prize money and ranking (which is the primary goal of most tennis professionals) and confidence for that matter. It takes skill to select the best schedule and he seems to do just that. He knows where he stands with the rest of the top 5 and works around that.
'Vulturing' by players lower down the rankings makes even more sense sometimes. I also appreciate the motivation and dedication it requires to be at your best at smaller events.

'Pushing' is not as easy as some posters make it out to be and I admire the skill of some 'pushers'. It requires patience, endurance and anticipation. It provides another array of match ups, some of which are fascinating such as Simon-Federer. Also kudos to those who can push when the situation calls for it, such as Murray.

Do you also appreciate these things (even a little)? And which other generally unappreciated skills do you appreciate?

Sorry to put everything in inverted commas.
Why exactly do any of these things deserve appreciation? Getting an inflated ranking through vulturing weak events and winning matches by feeding off errors instead of by your own shotmaking does not deserve praise, but endless amounts of criticism.

Take a university student who gets a passing grade because he slept with the professor and another one who got a passing grade because he actually studied and knew the material. Or someone who got a job/got promoted ahead of someone else because he/she slept with the boss. Sure, he was smart, he knew where he stood, that he had no chance on his own merits, and he knew it was the only way to get a passing grade/a job/a promotion. Does he deserve praise for taking the easy way out? Hell no. He deserves criticism for cheating the system and robbing more deserving people.

By the same token, Ferrer deserves criticism for abusing the ranking system to get better seedings in big events than players who are better than him and also for feeding off opponents' errors to win matches.

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Re: Appreciation of the unappreciated (e.g. 'vulturing' and 'pushing')

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Why exactly do any of these things deserve appreciation? Getting an inflated ranking through vulturing weak events and winning matches by feeding off errors instead of by your own shotmaking does not deserve praise, but endless amounts of criticism.

Take a university student who gets a passing grade because he slept with the professor and another one who got a passing grade because he actually studied and knew the material. Or someone who got a job/got promoted ahead of someone because he/she slept with the boss. Sure, he was smart, he knew where he stood and he knew it was the only way to get a passing grade/a job/a promotion. Does he deserve praise for taking the easy way out? Hell no. He deserved criticism for cheating the system and robbing more deserving people.

By the same token, Ferrer deserves criticism for abusing the ranking system to get better seedings in big events than players who are better than him and also for feeding off opponents' errors to win matches.
That is a terrible analogy, Ferrer is not doing anything immoral. A better one would be: take a student who isn't naturally very bright but works very hard and studies all the time. He does every last little bit of assessment and places 4th in the class and gets a scholarship. Then lots of people mock this student because he is not as gifted as other students who missed out.

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Originally Posted by n8 View Post
I think Kokkinakis will be the most successful player born in the 90s.
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post #7 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-26-2013, 03:05 AM
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Re: Appreciation of the unappreciated (e.g. 'vulturing' and 'pushing')

I appreciate:

1. The all-serve mug
2. The all-return mug
3. The vulture
4. The pusher
5. The moonballer
6. The brainless ballbasher
7. The choker
8. The talented headcase
9. The tanker
10. The fixer
11. The doper

Any more I missed?

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post #8 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-26-2013, 03:11 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Appreciation of the unappreciated (e.g. 'vulturing' and 'pushing')

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Groove View Post
I appreciate:

1. The all-serve mug
2. The all-return mug
3. The vulture
4. The pusher
5. The moonballer
6. The brainless ballbasher
7. The choker
8. The talented headcase
9. The tanker
10. The fixer
11. The doper

Any more I missed?
One-surface pony?

lllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
Quote:
Originally Posted by n8 View Post
I think Kokkinakis will be the most successful player born in the 90s.
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post #9 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-26-2013, 03:12 AM
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Re: Appreciation of the unappreciated (e.g. 'vulturing' and 'pushing')

Quote:
Originally Posted by StatRacket View Post
That is a terrible analogy, Ferrer is not doing anything immoral. A better one would be: take a student who isn't naturally very bright but works very hard and studies all the time. He does every last little bit of assessment and places 4th in the class and gets a scholarship. Then lots of people mock this student because he is not as gifted as other students who missed out.
The student in that example had the exact same opportunities as all the others though, he just studied more and reaped the rewards. Ferrer is distorting the playing field by selecting events with very weak fields: for instance, Berdych got 300 ranking points for his final in Dubai for which he had to beat Federer, Ferrer got the exact same points in Acapulco in the same week for beating a collection of players outside the top 30. Conversely, he got 1000 ranking points by beating Janowicz and Llodra in a Masters, Haas got 250 points for beating Federer and Berdych in the same tournament in Halle, Del Potro got 600 for beating Djokovic and Murray in Indian Wells.

You see where I'm getting at? Ferrer is not the student who works hard and does every last bit of assessment, he's the student who gets an early peek at the final exam and memorizes the answers to pass. I can quote the post I made the other day about his 20 titles but in short Soderling in Valencia 2010 was the only thing resembling a top player he beat in any of those runs.

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post #10 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-26-2013, 03:20 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Appreciation of the unappreciated (e.g. 'vulturing' and 'pushing')

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Originally Posted by Action Jackson View Post
I don't appreciate them and appreciate the terms even less.
Sure, the terms are unflattering, but it is handy to have a single word for different things that are discussed regularly. What do you suggest we call them?

lllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
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I think Kokkinakis will be the most successful player born in the 90s.
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post #11 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-26-2013, 03:24 AM
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Re: Appreciation of the unappreciated (e.g. 'vulturing' and 'pushing')

Ferrer is the kind of student who does decent at tests (slams, m1000's). But does hours of extra credit (250 events) to make up for his average tests so his grade (ranking) is higher than where it should probably be.
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post #12 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-26-2013, 03:25 AM
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Re: Appreciation of the unappreciated (e.g. 'vulturing' and 'pushing')

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Originally Posted by StatRacket View Post
One-surface pony?
Oh yes, the one surface mug. So we have 12 terms you can use to describe any player. Some players can be described using multiple.

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post #13 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-26-2013, 03:27 AM
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"vulturing" is in no way bad. It lets people see the top Guys more. But it irritates me Ferrer is given as the example for better or worse when statistically Tsonga, Tipsarevic, Gasquet, and del Potro do it more

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post #14 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-26-2013, 03:27 AM
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Re: Appreciation of the unappreciated (e.g. 'vulturing' and 'pushing')

When it comes to appreciating wildlife I much prefer llamas .

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post #15 of 77 (permalink) Old 03-26-2013, 03:27 AM
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Re: Appreciation of the unappreciated (e.g. 'vulturing' and 'pushing')

Quote:
Originally Posted by StatRacket View Post
That is a terrible analogy, Ferrer is not doing anything immoral. A better one would be: take a student who isn't naturally very bright but works very hard and studies all the time. He does every last little bit of assessment and places 4th in the class and gets a scholarship. Then lots of people mock this student because he is not as gifted as other students who missed out.
I do not appreciate vulturing and I appreciate pushing even less, but I have to say this is a fair analogy.
I think I have said this already: There is no such a thing as an "unfair" ranking. Sure, a player might get an easy draw or benefit from opponents out of form, but these things even themselves out over time. And yes, picking a smart schedule is a valid way to get ahead in the rankings. It might not win a player many fans (it sure hasn't in Ferrer's case), but it is a legitimate strategy nonetheless.


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