Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof. Wada IC report published) - Page 57 - MensTennisForums.com
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post #841 of 4860 (permalink) Old 01-31-2013, 11:28 PM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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So top players get even better conditions to keep dominating other players.

I guess you don't care at all about depth.
Except Gulbis and maybe few others, not many players very originally filthy rich. Fed comes from normal family afaik, Djokovic is from one the poorest countries in Europe and so on. Whatever money they made, they did it fair and square, so if they want a private jet, they can get a private jet. After all, having money doesn't guarantee you anything. If you want tennis back where it was 100 years ago, it's not going to happen

“There’s so many athletes, tennis players around the world,” he continued, trying to put his life into some kind of perspective, “they want to be the best in what they do. They want to succeed. Many of them, they don’t succeed in the end. I’m fortunate to have this opportunity and succeed.”
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post #842 of 4860 (permalink) Old 01-31-2013, 11:34 PM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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Do you believe using million-dollar recovery techniques that aren't illegal but are unfair equals to cheating?
I think those expensive tratments are a similar moral issue as doping. Unlike doping, they aren't a health risk. But they favour the ones who have much money and, like doping, they make the sport more about fitness and less about your playing skills.

But there's a big problem when it comes to controlling the use of the egg. You can't control it like the use of doping. So it wouldn't make sense to ban the egg when you coudln't follow if somebody uses it.

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post #843 of 4860 (permalink) Old 01-31-2013, 11:34 PM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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They should ban million-dollar "treatments".

Private jet is multi-million. Flying in it will allowing you a lot more refreshing when arriving at a new continent, much more so than flying Econ, for sure.
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post #844 of 4860 (permalink) Old 01-31-2013, 11:38 PM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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As far as I'm concerned, Spain's whole attitude to doping is disgraceful. Those names and those blood bags should be given to WADA to have a look at. Are the Spanish authorities afraid a few sporting heroes' reputations might take a hit or two?
More than a few - in this case we're talking 200 top athletes alone, and only a bit over 50 have been identified. The rest (mostly footballers, tennis players, and track athletes) have got away with it.

For example, Manzano said he saw a "famous footballer" when he was at Fuentes' suite.
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post #845 of 4860 (permalink) Old 01-31-2013, 11:42 PM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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More than a few - in this case we're talking 200 top athletes alone, and only a bit over 50 have been identified. The rest (mostly footballers, tennis players, and track athletes) have got away with it.

For example, Manzano said he saw a "famous footballer" when he was at Fuentes' suite.
On a related issue - I'm assuming these top athletes on Fuentes' client list are not all from Spain? So the 40-odd tennis players could be from a whole bunch of different countries??
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post #846 of 4860 (permalink) Old 01-31-2013, 11:57 PM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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this discussion is legitimate and appropriate, I can say that.

But it is known they are really all on their own out there, their world is as brutal and competitive as it gets
Obviously, but it's a class association.

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Originally Posted by Time Violation View Post
Except Gulbis and maybe few others, not many players very originally filthy rich. Fed comes from normal family afaik, Djokovic is from one the poorest countries in Europe and so on. Whatever money they made, they did it fair and square, so if they want a private jet, they can get a private jet. After all, having money doesn't guarantee you anything. If you want tennis back where it was 100 years ago, it's not going to happen
Fair and square? So a Swiss kid has the same initial condition as an African kid? Please...

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I think those expensive tratments are a similar moral issue as doping. Unlike doping, they aren't a health risk. But they favour the ones who have much money and, like doping, they make the sport more about fitness and less about your playing skills.

But there's a big problem when it comes to controlling the use of the egg. You can't control it like the use of doping. So it wouldn't make sense to ban the egg when you coudln't follow if somebody uses it.
We all know it has nothing to do with eggs, but with multi-million dollar treatments and medical staffs.
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post #847 of 4860 (permalink) Old 02-01-2013, 02:04 AM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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This is an interesting thread but hopefully there can less fanboys of EVERY player coming in here to try and denigrate other players or fans of other players.

Put simply: the idea that any player, however talented, could compete with other talented players that are doping is absurd. It doesn't matter how good you are, you will not be able to defeat top players that have ostensibly made superhuman (in some aspects) of the game or their fitness. Various PEDs do different things and they will not turn a player ranked #1500 into #1 but they would certainly be able to improve a player ranked, say, 10-15 in a top 6-8 player. And so on. So really if you're coming in here and trying to insult your least favourite player in the top 4 (and you're a fan of another top 4 player) then you should think long and hard about the implications of what you're saying.

Realistically either a huge majority of tennis players are on something - of varying quality, of course - or it's restricted to the very top players who via cult of personality can get away with it by way of being too valuable to the sport. Or no players are doping but that seems pretty unlikely given how lax the testing is in our sport.
This is a very sensible post. Is idiotic for one to think that your chosen top 5 hero is totally clean while another top 5 is doping to the gills. Logic would suggest otherwise, the skills of the whole top 50 are already pretty damn close, when you get to the top 10 the differences are even slimmer, to think that one player would be able to overcome another close in skill just with talent alone when they are already closely matched day in and day out is highly unlikely.

If this is the case, there is likely an ometra going on. Look at how all the top players respond similarly to the doping topic. Imagine you are a clean player looking at the lacking Tennis doping regulation, wouldn't you be all over questioning things and taking it to the to the sports regulators? Not accusing people, but just questioning in an candid way. The only time top players talk about doping is when the media directly ask them about it and at most they will do a PR exercise and go yeah, I guess we could be more tested for blood.
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post #848 of 4860 (permalink) Old 02-01-2013, 07:31 AM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

The more physical the sport becomes (Slams 5-6 hour matches etc.) the more you gain from doping. Taylor Hamilton also says this in his book. He believed it was possible to compete (clean) against the dopers in short races, but in longer races there was just no chance.
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post #849 of 4860 (permalink) Old 02-01-2013, 07:43 AM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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Fair and square? So a Swiss kid has the same initial condition as an African kid? Please...
Get over yourself What about wintersports? Swiss has huge advantage over Southern Europe, Southern America and Africa, how do we solve that? We are not talking about education, healthcare or other basic human rights here. If tennis is not accessible in some countries, they can always try some other sport.

“There’s so many athletes, tennis players around the world,” he continued, trying to put his life into some kind of perspective, “they want to be the best in what they do. They want to succeed. Many of them, they don’t succeed in the end. I’m fortunate to have this opportunity and succeed.”
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post #850 of 4860 (permalink) Old 02-01-2013, 12:07 PM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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On a related issue - I'm assuming these top athletes on Fuentes' client list are not all from Spain? So the 40-odd tennis players could be from a whole bunch of different countries??
Must be. A lot of foreigners train or are based in Europe anyway, and there aren't enough top Spanish players to make up that number.

The footballers seem to be largely at Spanish clubs though. One Fuentes interview with Le Monde:

"I worked with Spanish first and second division clubs ... I worked with several at the same time, sometimes directly with the players, sometimes by sharing my knowledge with clubs' doctors. I also had an offer from an Italian club but I turned it down."

He wouldn't give details though, said he'd had death threats.


About 10 years back he was the head doctor for the Las Palmas club. After one match a crapload of EPO syringes were found in their dressing room :-)

This being Spain, nothing at all happened, to him, the club, or the players.
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post #851 of 4860 (permalink) Old 02-02-2013, 01:18 PM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

Odesnik listed in the Tony Bosch dope notebooks, _after_ his ban expired:

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/ripti..._cr.php?page=3


Makes sense, he knows there's no chance the testing can catch him. Just needs to be more careful packing his suitcase.
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post #852 of 4860 (permalink) Old 02-03-2013, 07:39 AM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...039948004.html
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post #853 of 4860 (permalink) Old 02-03-2013, 10:35 AM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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Except Gulbis and maybe few others, not many players very originally filthy rich. Fed comes from normal family afaik, Djokovic is from one the poorest countries in Europe and so on. Whatever money they made, they did it fair and square, so if they want a private jet, they can get a private jet. After all, having money doesn't guarantee you anything. If you want tennis back where it was 100 years ago, it's not going to happen
Djokovic came from a wealthy family in Serbia though?

In fact, most professional tennis players, unless they happen to be the children of tennis coaches, have to have wealthy parents to get in the game at such a young age. The Williams sisters are more of an exception i think.

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post #854 of 4860 (permalink) Old 02-03-2013, 10:38 AM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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Djokovic came from a wealthy family in Serbia though?

In fact, most professional tennis players, unless they happen to be the children of tennis coaches, have to have wealthy parents to get in the game at such a young age. The Williams sisters are more of an exception i think.
Yeah this.
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post #855 of 4860 (permalink) Old 02-03-2013, 11:04 AM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

Anyways, I'm not sure tennis has any interest in exposing top players, especially great champions. Who watches cycling without Lance Armstrong? No one. For tennis to lose a couple of the big names at the top would be a huge blow- the whole organization of tournaments etc is to benefit the top seeds.

http://www.menstennisforums.com/atta...8&d=1224521470

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