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post #571 of 4374 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 10:52 AM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

The Armstrong case has not changed Toni Nadal's opinion and speech :

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I’m fine because Rafa is clean. If ATP thinks that is right to increase anti- doping controls, do what they think it’s better. It’s true that there was the case of Mariano Puerta, but since then no top tennis player has ever been convicted as a doper, I think that they are all clean. It’s hard to dope.”
http://www.tennisworldusa.org/Toni-N...icolo7169.html

EDIT : I changed the quotes from tennisworld a little bit, since Castafiore checked the original interview in Spanish and according to her, he didn't say "it's impossible to dope" ... and accordingly, he probably meant "since no top-player has ever been convicted as a doper" rather than "no top-player has ever doped"

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Last edited by duong; 11-29-2012 at 02:10 PM.
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post #572 of 4374 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 11:47 AM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)



EDIT: still

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post #573 of 4374 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 01:53 PM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

Since poor Uncle Toni finds the antidoping system so oppressive, I'll give him a little helping hand. Here's an ultra-complex methodology that will bypass the controls, and allow you to dope all year round:


Part 1: When doping, lie about your location to the whereabouts system.
Part 2: errm, that's it.



Seriously, that's all it takes for a doper to be 100% safe. You might get a missed test warning for your 1 out of competition test a year, but so what? You need 3 of them in 18 months to get banned, and that's unlikely.

If you are ultra unlucky and get 2 missed test warnings, just stop doping for a few months until the first expires. By a sheer coincidence, the two players I know to have racked up two missed test warnings both had _massive_ and extended drops in form after the 2nd.


It's a complete joke. A fig leaf designed to meet wada minimum standards, but never catch any cheat.

Last edited by philosophicalarf; 11-29-2012 at 01:59 PM.
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post #574 of 4374 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 03:43 PM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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Originally Posted by duong View Post
The Armstrong case has not changed Toni Nadal's opinion and speech :



http://www.tennisworldusa.org/Toni-N...icolo7169.html

EDIT : I changed the quotes from tennisworld a little bit, since Castafiore checked the original interview in Spanish and according to her, he didn't say "it's impossible to dope" ... and accordingly, he probably meant "since no top-player has ever been convicted as a doper" rather than "no top-player has ever doped"
It is interesting to note the complete contrast between Federer's answer and Toni Nadal's answer to the question of doping in tennis.
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post #575 of 4374 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 03:56 PM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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It is interesting to note the complete contrast between Federer's answer and Toni Nadal's answer to the question of doping in tennis.
I'd rather say that since the Armstrong case, and as far as the tennis world is concerned, some seem to have changed to a more concerned and offensive tone on that topic (Murray, Federer, Gasquet, Tsonga although Tsonga already spoke on that before -and he's said to be in regular communication with Noah ), 2 ones have not changed their speech yet : Novak Djokovic and Toni Nadal (we will see about Rafa but his uncle is generally a good sign of what he says, also considering what Indurain and other Spaniards said I think the evolution is slow on that topic among top-Spanish sportsmen ...)

Anyway, I think it's important that the debate becomes more serious/concerned on that topic, but most important is what the ITF changes, there were a few declarations about that in previous pages of this thread, I hope these declarations become concrete in next one or 2 years.

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post #576 of 4374 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 10:10 PM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
Since poor Uncle Toni finds the antidoping system so oppressive, I'll give him a little helping hand. Here's an ultra-complex methodology that will bypass the controls, and allow you to dope all year round:


Part 1: When doping, lie about your location to the whereabouts system.
Part 2: errm, that's it.



Seriously, that's all it takes for a doper to be 100% safe. You might get a missed test warning for your 1 out of competition test a year, but so what? You need 3 of them in 18 months to get banned, and that's unlikely.

If you are ultra unlucky and get 2 missed test warnings, just stop doping for a few months until the first expires. By a sheer coincidence, the two players I know to have racked up two missed test warnings both had _massive_ and extended drops in form after the 2nd.


It's a complete joke. A fig leaf designed to meet wada minimum standards, but never catch any cheat.
I doubt you could conceive of a better system designed not to catch cheats while simultaneously fooling a gullible, largely fanboy public that you can. Unbelievable really.
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post #577 of 4374 (permalink) Old 11-30-2012, 02:48 AM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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I doubt you could conceive of a better system designed not to catch cheats while simultaneously fooling a gullible, largely fanboy public that you can. Unbelievable really.
It's a stroke of genius, maybe a combination of by design and chance. but it will not last forever.
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post #578 of 4374 (permalink) Old 12-01-2012, 08:19 AM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

We are all laughing at the stupidity of the rules the ATP enforce to "fight" dopers, but it is actually making me really sad. I have no way of knowing if I am looking at great athletes or just pumped up drugmachines.

My wish is that they would completely revise this system and make sure it is all done by an external bureau, that does not benefit from covering things up.

Imagine if we found out that Federer was doped up for all those years, would we still think he was the GOAT? or if Nadal did, would Fedfans go in a frenzy, claiming that he spoiled his legacy? Or if Nole did, would Nadalfans go berserk saying his dope abuse ruined their heroes' shot at surpassing Federer?

The least they should do is put some effort into convincing the public that everything is being done to fight drug abuse. Right now the program is laughably pathetic and they are just giving it the silent treatment..
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post #579 of 4374 (permalink) Old 12-01-2012, 10:55 AM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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The least they should do is put some effort into convincing the public that everything is being done to fight drug abuse. Right now the program is laughably pathetic and they are just giving it the silent treatment..
well most of the public doesn't know it, and they are regularly reassured by guys like Agassi (and many other old sportsmen who have become commentators like McEnroe, Noah isn't part of this tennis world : he's a professional singer now ) :

Quote:
You referenced your own drug use in the book, and I wonder if you think tennis now does a good enough job in drug testing?

“I don’t know that you can ever do too much. You look toward the governing bodies to protect the integrity of the sport, and I believe the ATP and ITF have been ahead of the curve in setting the bar high. I had 20 urine, eight blood and three out-of-competition tests when I played. Now, it’s stricter. Players have to list their whereabouts. They know there’s a high priority on being clean, with WADA [World Anti-Doping Agency] in there for third-party oversight. I’m proud of where we are.”

What do you think would be the performance-enhancer of choice in tennis?

“The greatest asset you can have is rehabilitating, recovery. It’s not going to serve you well to be a body builder type. But the things that minimize the effects of work and injuries.”
http://www.latimes.com/sports/sports...,7186089.story

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post #580 of 4374 (permalink) Old 12-01-2012, 11:05 AM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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well most of the public doesn't know it, and they are regularly reassured by guys like Agassi (and many other old sportsmen who have become commentators like McEnroe, Noah isn't part of this tennis world : he's a professional singer now ) :



http://www.latimes.com/sports/sports...,7186089.story
I know mate, tbh I find it incredibly stupid to ask Agassi's opinion on this matter. I've lost a lot of respect for him after his cowardly confession when it couldn't hurt him anymore and I will disregard what he has to say on the matter.

The problem is ofcourse not just the ATP, it is also the media, who are too involved or too scared to ask critical questions or to dig deeper. This ofcourse also explains why the public knows so little about it.
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post #581 of 4374 (permalink) Old 12-01-2012, 11:33 AM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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The problem is ofcourse not just the ATP, it is also the media, who are too involved or too scared to ask critical questions or to dig deeper. This ofcourse also explains why the public knows so little about it.
it's all of the world around tennis ... including fans if you consider what you said about the vertigo we would have if one of the top-players was convicted ...

and including the ITF who is now in charge of the anti-doping policy in tennis, although it might evolve with more power for the WADA, and it would be a major evolution.

We have to pay a huge respect to cycling and the USADA for what they did, although it has been a very very long process with a lot of episodes before Armstrong's final "revealing" (at least in the US) to the public.

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post #582 of 4374 (permalink) Old 12-01-2012, 02:02 PM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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We are all laughing at the stupidity of the rules the ATP enforce to "fight" dopers, but it is actually making me really sad. I have no way of knowing if I am looking at great athletes or just pumped up drugmachines.

Indeed.

Personally, I've just made the assumption they're all doped at the top end of the sport. Look at athletics, baseball, cycling: history says they're all crammed with dopers until a major scandal makes the sport do something. Football of course had its scandals and did basically nothing, and is unsurprisingly now full of duracell bunnies. Sports like the nfl and nba are clearly absolutely riven with doping, you only need cast an eye at the physiques involved.

It's thus of course no surprise to find known doping doctors and trainers with their tentacles in tennis. Or to see those who miss two out-of-comp tests suddenly spiralling downwards in form, until the first missed expires and they can get back on the good stuff.

People even dope in amateur sports nowadays, yet we're supposed to believe that with millions at stake, and no anti-doping system to speak of, tennis is even slightly clean?
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post #583 of 4374 (permalink) Old 12-01-2012, 02:25 PM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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Indeed.

Personally, I've just made the assumption they're all doped at the top end of the sport.
all ? no, but yes I've made the assumtion that most of top-players may be doped, not especially the opponents of my favorite player, it can also be my favorite player who is in or follows the system. Then I don't so much think of unfairness (anyway sport is unfair by nature : some always have better natural abilites than others )

And I don't accuse so much individual players, in my eyes the problem is the system and it's the system which has to be improved.

Something else : some say that as everybody dopes, let's legalize doping ! Well all thigs being considered, I'd prefer a situation where "everybody" dopes but noone knows it than a system where all this is "official", because as I explained before, I don't want too much publicity to be made for these methods as an example for children ... I don't want one day to read "Do like Federer (or Nadal or Djokovic) : win thanks to our pill !"

And no I'm not someone who generally likes hypocrisy in life, actually my education tends me to the opposite way of "rebelling against hypocrisy" (it's the case of French education in general)

But getting older, I've learnt that it's better not to be too idealistic because life is always much lower than ideals, it's good to learn to be humble in front of life.

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Last edited by duong; 12-01-2012 at 02:35 PM.
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post #584 of 4374 (permalink) Old 12-01-2012, 02:30 PM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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it's all of the world around tennis ... including fans if you consider what you said about the vertigo we would have if one of the top-players was convicted ...

and including the ITF who is now in charge of the anti-doping policy in tennis, although it might evolve with more power for the WADA, and it would be a major evolution.

We have to pay a huge respect to cycling and the USADA for what they did, although it has been a very very long process with a lot of episodes before Armstrong's final "revealing" (at least in the US) to the public.
I guess you are right duong, maybe cycling deserves alot of respect for their anti-doping program. I would rather have all my favourites be banned due to dope use, than have a facade where everyone just maintains the status-quo and pretends like nothing is wrong with this sport tbh. But I understand I might be a minority in this.
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post #585 of 4374 (permalink) Old 12-02-2012, 03:10 AM
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Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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I guess you are right duong, maybe cycling deserves alot of respect for their anti-doping program. I would rather have all my favourites be banned due to dope use, than have a facade where everyone just maintains the status-quo and pretends like nothing is wrong with this sport tbh. But I understand I might be a minority in this.
I don't think you are a minority, I think that is the stance with the general public, if not the hardcore tennis fans.

And I agree with you, btw.
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