Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potential - Page 4 - MensTennisForums.com

View Poll Results: What was Ancic's potential compared to his age peers - Soderling, Berdych and Tsonga?
He could have been better than them 14 30.43%
Roughly the same 13 28.26%
He was inferior to them 19 41.30%
Voters: 46. You may not vote on this poll

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post #46 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-02-2013, 10:23 PM
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Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

Lenders,

You said the below, that Tsonga, Berdych and Del Potro:

Quote:
And all those 'mugs' are far better than Ferrer.
Your reasoning was that Tsonga and Berdych had reached a Slam final and Del Potro had won a Slam - therefore they were better players.

Quote:
Ferrer isn't even good enough to 'fluke' a final. He can win the St Hertongenboschs of this world 1000 times, he will still be inferior to players who won Slams or played in Slam finals. Tsonga and Berdych reached their Slam finals by straight setting Nadal and Djokovic respectively, that's basically more games in one set than Ferrer wins in his entire Slam semis.
As winning a Slam is obviously better than being merely in the final and losing, you have therefore come to the conclusion that Gaston Gaudio is a better tennis player than Tsonga or Berdych.

Agreed? All I need is a yes or no answer.
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post #47 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-02-2013, 10:27 PM
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Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

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Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
Good for him. He was still eliminated while Del Potro advanced to the semis with Federer in that group. But I suppose getting a few token wins over a GS winner is what it was all about.
Irrelevant.
Anyway, I find it funny how such a superior player (Del Potro) can't find a way to beat an inferior boring pusher (Ferrer). Yes, now please go back to how Del Potro played well for two weeks back in 2009.


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post #48 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-02-2013, 10:31 PM
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Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

How did a thread about Ancic turn to this?

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post #49 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-02-2013, 10:32 PM
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Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wing Man Frank View Post
Lenders,

You said the below, that Tsonga, Berdych and Del Potro:



Your reasoning was that Tsonga and Berdych had reached a Slam final and Del Potro had won a Slam - therefore they were better players.



As winning a Slam is obviously better than being merely in the final and losing, you have therefore come to the conclusion that Gaston Gaudio is a better tennis player than Tsonga or Berdych.

Agreed? All I need is a yes or no answer.
Gaudio was ranked 40 something when he won Roland Garros. Although it was well deserved, it would be understandable if it's considered a fluke (altough it changes nothing really, he won it and it's all that matters), given he never made a QF again in a grand slam. None of these players has such poor results outside their slam final/title, so it's not a fluke in any way.

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post #50 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-02-2013, 10:33 PM
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Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

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Originally Posted by Deathless Mortal View Post
Irrelevant.
Anyway, I find it funny how such a superior player (Del Potro) can't find a way to beat an inferior boring pusher (Ferrer). Yes, now please go back to how Del Potro played well for two weeks back in 2009.
So, Roland Garros, Montreal, the WTF, Miami and the Us Open were played in 2 weeks??

Hell, I understand why players complain about the calendar.

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post #51 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-02-2013, 10:36 PM
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Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

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Gaudio was ranked 40 something when he won Roland Garros. Although it was well deserved, it would be understandable if it's considered a fluke (altough it changes nothing really, he won it and it's all that matters), given he never made a QF again in a grand slam. None of these players has such poor results outside their slam final/title, so it's not a fluke in any way.
It's not about whether that was a fluke or not. It's about Lenders' logic by which a player that has a Slam title is instantly a better player than the one that does not. Other achievements do not matter. If that logic works for Del Potro (and Tsonga and Berdych) being a better player than Ferrer, then it must also work for Gaudio (or say Thomas Johansson) being better than Tsonga and Berdych.


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post #52 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-02-2013, 10:37 PM
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Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

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Originally Posted by Deathless Mortal View Post
It's not about whether that was a fluke or not. It's about Lenders' logic by which a player that has a Slam title is instantly a better player than the one that does not. Other achievements do not matter. If that logic works for Del Potro (and Tsonga and Berdych) being a better player than Ferrer, then it must also work for Gaudio (or say Thomas Johansson) being better than Tsonga and Berdych.
Exactly. Thank you, you saved me a bit of effort!
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post #53 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-02-2013, 10:37 PM
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Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

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So, Roland Garros, Montreal, the WTF, Miami and the Us Open were played in 2 weeks??

Hell, I understand why players complain about the calendar.
Sorry, I must've forgot he won all those tournaments as well. For some reason I thought his 2nd biggest title was Estoril. Silly me


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post #54 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-02-2013, 10:40 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wing Man Frank View Post
Lenders,

You said the below, that Tsonga, Berdych and Del Potro:



Your reasoning was that Tsonga and Berdych had reached a Slam final and Del Potro had won a Slam - therefore they were better players.



As winning a Slam is obviously better than being merely in the final and losing, you have therefore come to the conclusion that Gaston Gaudio is a better tennis player than Tsonga or Berdych.

Agreed? All I need is a yes or no answer.
I come to the conclusion that Gaudio is a more accomplised (greater if you prefer) player than them, yes, he won the title that those two have so long sought and failed to win. Since they competed against different fields, I come to no definite conclusion about who played a higher level of tennis.

Unlike you, I don't brand big wins as 'flukes' just because a player I don't like won (I like Gaudio, but definitely prefer Tsonga and Soderling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
How did a thread about Ancic turn to this?
Ferrer supporters have long made a habit of hijacking a lot of threads to push their agenda. I guess I could be blamed for taking the bait, but oh well. At least it keeps the thread near the top of GM so more people can read it and remember Mario

Quote:
Originally Posted by BauerAlmeida View Post
So, Roland Garros, Montreal, the WTF, Miami and the Us Open were played in 2 weeks??

Hell, I understand why players complain about the calendar.
He was the second best player in the world in 2009 in the four Slams and five biggest events if we include WTF (gathering 1000+ more points than Nadal and more than Djokovic and Murray put together) only behind Federer. And people still claim he has fitness problems, doing all this in 2 weeks

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Suicide Tennis (5): Wimbledon 2014, World Tour Finals 2015, Madrid 2015, Kuala Lumpur 2014 and Metz 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 WTF, 1 Masters 1000, 2 ATP 250; 2 finals lost

Fill-in-the-Draw (3): US Open 2014, Rotterdam 2013 and Geneva 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 ATP 500 and 1 ATP 250

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post #55 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-02-2013, 10:43 PM
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Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathless Mortal View Post
It's not about whether that was a fluke or not. It's about Lenders' logic by which a player that has a Slam title is instantly a better player than the one that does not. Other achievements do not matter. If that logic works for Del Potro (and Tsonga and Berdych) being a better player than Ferrer, then it must also work for Gaudio (or say Thomas Johansson) being better than Tsonga and Berdych.
If you leave DP's slam out, he is still at the same level or better than Ferrer. If you leave Gaudio's slam out, he has nothing.

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Originally Posted by Deathless Mortal View Post
Sorry, I must've forgot he won all those tournaments as well. For some reason I thought his 2nd biggest title was Estoril. Silly me
You said "played well for 2 weeks". If he reachs WTF and M1000 finals beating Federer, Nadal, etc. he was playing well. If wining slams is the only thing that qualifies as "playing well", then Ferrer never played well.

As Manuel pointed out, only Federer had more points in the important tournaments during 2009 (that would be more than 2 weeks). So, only Federer played well that year?? The rest of the tour were all mugs??

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post #56 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-02-2013, 10:45 PM
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Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
I come to the conclusion that Gaudio is a more accomplised (greater if you prefer) player than them, yes, he won the title that those two have so long sought and failed to win. Since they competed against different fields, I come to no definite conclusion about who played a higher level of tennis.

Unlike you, I don't brand big wins as 'flukes' just because a player I don't like won (I like Gaudio, but definitely prefer Tsonga and Soderling.
You seem incapable of answering a simple question.

Is Gaudio a better player than Berdych, Tsonga and Soderling?

Yes or no.
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post #57 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-02-2013, 10:53 PM
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Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

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If you leave DP's slam out, he is still at the same level or better than Ferrer. If you leave Gaudio's slam out, he has nothing.
Again you did not understand the point. It is not necessarily about Del Potro. It's about player A with a Slam title instantly being better than player B without a Slam title. That's Lenders' logic.



Quote:
If wining slams is the only thing that qualifies as "playing well", then Ferrer never played well.
In a weird way you actually helped me make a point. That's exactly what it's about, winning Slams is not the only thing that qualifies as playing well, neither it's the only thing that shows who is a better player.


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post #58 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-02-2013, 10:53 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wing Man Frank View Post
You seem incapable of answering a simple question.

Is Gaudio a better player than Berdych, Tsonga and Soderling?

Yes or no.
Because it's not a simple question at all bar for those with very narrow views. There's hardly anything more difficult than comparing the relative levels of players who peaked in different eras against different fields.

Just to put this myth that Gaudio did nothing else other than his Slam in perspective though:

-he won 8 titles, that's the same # of titles as Berdych and one less than Tsonga
-his highest ranking was #5, that's as high as Tsonga ever got and higher than Berdych
-he reached the SF of the TMC/WTF (same as Berdych)

Yes, they did have better careers outside of the Slam Gaudio won - bigger titles, more deep Slams runs and wins over top players on the big stage -, but it's not like Gaudio was only relevant during those two weeks unlike many want to convey.

Some people on MTF (like you) love to attack players and their achievements without ever having watched them play or even taken the time to analyse their career, it's important to keep perspective and block this disinformation.

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Suicide Tennis (5): Wimbledon 2014, World Tour Finals 2015, Madrid 2015, Kuala Lumpur 2014 and Metz 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 WTF, 1 Masters 1000, 2 ATP 250; 2 finals lost

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post #59 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-02-2013, 10:55 PM
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Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

Lenders digging himself a hole, priceless

This is what does it, claiming Del Potro, Tsonga and Berdych are better players than Ferrer:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
You need to ask your first grade Math teacher to teach you how to count. 1 Slam title > 0. 1 Slam final > 0. It's not that hard; you don't need to understand anything about tennis for this one, which makes it much easier for you, all you need is some basic first grade Math skills.
You did make it very simple right there, but now all of the sudden it's not simple at all.


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post #60 of 102 (permalink) Old 02-02-2013, 10:59 PM
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Re: Mario Ancic vs his age peers - Soderling, Tsonga and Berdych - in terms of potent

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Originally Posted by Deathless Mortal View Post
Again you did not understand the point. It is not necessarily about Del Potro. It's about player A with a Slam title instantly being better than player B without a Slam title. That's Lenders' logic.





In a weird way you actually helped me make a point. That's exactly what it's about, winning Slams is not the only thing that qualifies as playing well, neither it's the only thing that shows who is a better player.
I never said it was, in any case you were the one saying it when you said he only played well for 2 weeks, not taking into consideration all the other great results apart from the USO.

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