Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker? - Page 27 - MensTennisForums.com
View Poll Results: Has Djokovic surpassed Edberg and Becker?
He has surpassed both 84 56.76%
He has surpassed neither 47 31.76%
He has surpassed Becker but not Edberg 13 8.78%
He has surpassed Edberg but not Becker 4 2.70%
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post #391 of 499 (permalink) Old 02-09-2013, 11:35 PM
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Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

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Originally Posted by Caesar1844 View Post
Are you simple?

I never said it is currently a weak era. I just said that current slam counts for the top players are inflated. If you can't discern the difference between those two things then perhaps you need to go back to elementary school.
Inflated because the surfaces allows them to dominate, you say. But the WTA, on the same surfaces, don't dominate. And you justify it because of their poor forms. So why aren't you giving the men credit because of THEIR top forms?

Double standards. Top form is irrelevant on the men's side
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post #392 of 499 (permalink) Old 02-09-2013, 11:40 PM
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Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

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Inflated because the surfaces allows them to dominate, you say. But the WTA, on the same surfaces, don't dominate. And you justify it because of their poor forms. So why aren't you giving the men credit because of THEIR top forms?

Double standards. Top form is irrelevant on the men's side
He's talking about general form across the board - not just for certain individual players. The lack of consistency is a tour trait on the women's side so they'll never be directly comparable to the ATP. The transition to power play just exacerbated it into what we see today. Traditionally the differences in surfaces has never been as large a factor on the WTA compared to the ATP tour. Age seems to be largely irrelevant too but that's going off topic.

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post #393 of 499 (permalink) Old 02-09-2013, 11:56 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

Surface difference has never really mattered that much on the WTA cause their serves aren't weapons, rendering that and ROS quality irrelevant.

Serena Williams won RG in 2002 for example. Sanchez Vicario the biggest moonballer ever seen won a freaking US Open in the early 90s.

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post #394 of 499 (permalink) Old 02-10-2013, 12:15 AM
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Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

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He's talking about general form across the board - not just for certain individual players. The lack of consistency of a tour trait on the women's side so they'll never be directly comparable to the ATP. The transition to power play just exacerbated it into what we see today. Traditionally the differences in surfaces has never been as large a factor on the WTA compared to the ATP tour. Age seems to be largely irrelevant too but that's going off topic.
My point of contention is that Caesar is trying to make surface a bigger issue than it really is. Federer, Djokovic, and Nadal (to a lesser extent) are all good, consistent players. And a different surface isn't going to fuck up your game if you're already consistent.

If there was no homogeneity of the surfaces, a low-ranked grass court specialist isn't going to beat Djokovic on grass JUST BECAUSE it's grass. A low ranked clay courter isn't going to beat Federer on clay JUST BECAUSE it's clay. Their games pretty much suit all surfaces. Surface is only ONE aspect of tennis and to act like it's the only factor in determining a tennis match is ludicrous. Their serves, their movement, their groundstrokes, their variety, their court sense....it's not going to disappear just because the surface is different.

Not to mention the various match-ups in tennis.....
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post #395 of 499 (permalink) Old 02-10-2013, 12:32 AM
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Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

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My point of contention is that Caesar is trying to make surface a bigger issue than it really is. Federer, Djokovic, and Nadal (to a lesser extent) are all good, consistent players. And a different surface isn't going to fuck up your game if you're already consistent.

If there was no homogeneity of the surfaces, a low-ranked grass court specialist isn't going to beat Djokovic on grass JUST BECAUSE it's grass. A low ranked clay courter isn't going to beat Federer on clay JUST BECAUSE it's clay. Their games pretty much suit all surfaces. Surface is only ONE aspect of tennis and to act like it's the only factor in determining a tennis match is ludicrous. Their serves, their movement, their groundstrokes, their variety, their court sense....it's not going to disappear just because the surface is different.

Not to mention the various match-ups in tennis.....
Djokovic's game isn't suited to traditional grass at all. His movement there is average at best, doesn't like inconsistent or low bounces as much, slice/volleys are nothing special and his serve isn't particularly good. His diminished movement and lack of variety is exactly what would make him more vulnerable on old grass. His serve wouldn't disappear but it's nothing special in the first place so I can't see how that's relevant. Surface specialisation used to be the great equaliser between top players and the rest. Of course the lower ranked player isn't going to win everytime but it sure gives them a better shot at the occasional upset.

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post #396 of 499 (permalink) Old 02-10-2013, 12:36 AM
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Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

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Djokovic's game isn't suited to traditional grass at all. His movement there is average at best, doesn't like inconsistent or low bounces as much, slice/volleys are nothing special and his serve isn't particularly good. Surface specialisation used to be the great equaliser between top players and the rest. Of course the lower ranked player isn't going to win everytime but it sure gives them a better shot at the occasional upset.
can u imagine if one thing was good in nole's game, where his potential would be? if he was talented with so many options like murray or tommy haas?

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post #397 of 499 (permalink) Old 02-10-2013, 12:44 AM
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Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

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To be fair Djokovic's slam count isn't really inflated. Obviously the Wimbledon title looks funny but the rest make sense. Only Federer and Nadal's slam counts could be seen as inflated IMO.
well Leng, his Wimledon title 'might look funny' but he did win it fair and square (remember he beat Tsonga who beat Fed, and then he def. Rafa . yeah, Nole on grass is not Fed or Sampras but he is not to shabby either. Don't be shocked if Nole wins another W .
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________

Now, all these arguments about surfaces. yes, they slowed them down, yes W grass is not what it used to be, yes, yes and yes, except clay is clay. What I think many guys here overlook is this: If Boris and Edberg were playing today under these conditions and current surfaces they would be base-liners too. They would be slaughtered if they tried to S&W today. If Djokovic was born in 1967 and played in '80/90s he would be trained to S&W and he wouldn't play from the baseline, his game style would be completely different.

You can't invent a time machine and bring 25 years old Boris/Stefan to 2013 or take 25yo Nole back to 1990. It's that simple.

My point is, you can not copmapre different eras. Everything is different. Players adapt to whatever conditions are. Therefore, we can only compare their accomplishments in their respective eras (numbers of slams and tournaments won, weeks at #1 etc).

Speed up the courts, and you'll still see top 4 winning everything left and right. Why? Because they are that good.

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post #398 of 499 (permalink) Old 02-10-2013, 01:01 AM
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Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

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can u imagine if one thing was good in nole's game, where his potential would be? if he was talented with so many options like murray or tommy haas?
Imagine if Haas had the egg and no injuries.

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well Leng, his Wimledon title 'might look funny' but he did win it fair and square (remember he beat Tsonga who beat Fed, and then he def. Rafa . yeah, Nole on grass is not Fed or Sampras but he is not to shabby either. Don't be shocked if Nole wins another W .
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________

Now, all these arguments about surfaces. yes, they slowed them down, yes W grass is not what it used to be, yes, yes and yes, except clay is clay. What I think many guys here overlook is this: If Boris and Edberg were playing today under these conditions and current surfaces they would be base-liners too. They would be slaughtered if they tried to S&W today. If Djokovic was born in 1967 and played in '80/90s he would be trained to S&W and he wouldn't play from the baseline, his game style would be completely different.

You can't invent a time machine and bring 25 years old Boris/Stefan to 2013 or take 25yo Nole back to 1990. It's that simple.

My point is, you can not copmapre different eras. Everything is different. Players adapt to whatever conditions are. Therefore, we can only compare their accomplishments in their respective eras (numbers of slams and tournaments won, weeks at #1 etc).

Speed up the courts, and you'll still see top 4 winning everything left and right. Why? Because they are that good.
It's simply being pointed out that modern conditions make dominance on all surfaces much easier. If Djokovic was born in the 70s and played S&V instead then he probably wouldn't be in contention for RG or win anywhere near as as many hard court slams.

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post #399 of 499 (permalink) Old 02-10-2013, 01:10 AM
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Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

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Imagine if Haas had the egg and no injuries.
you can troll all they long but nole used egg perhaps few times in his life. And who is to say Haas didn't use one?

injuries you say? he should've taken care of his body better. perhaps surface homogenization screwed him over?

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post #400 of 499 (permalink) Old 02-10-2013, 01:31 AM
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Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

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you can troll all they long but nole used egg perhaps few times in his life. And who is to say Haas didn't use one?

injuries you say? he should've taken care of his body better. perhaps surface homogenization screwed him over?
I think Leng is just being sarcastic when it comes to the egg. That thing costs $75,000, any player in top 50 or so can afford it if it's that good (and no, it's not really). Nole probably got big $$$$$$$$$$$$$ to talk about it (apparently he used it only 2 times or so). As for Tommy's injuries, that's another story. and it's a sad story.
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post #401 of 499 (permalink) Old 02-10-2013, 01:49 AM
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Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

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Djokovic's game isn't suited to traditional grass at all. His movement there is average at best, doesn't like inconsistent or low bounces as much, slice/volleys are nothing special and his serve isn't particularly good. His diminished movement and lack of variety is exactly what would make him more vulnerable on old grass. His serve wouldn't disappear but it's nothing special in the first place so I can't see how that's relevant. Surface specialisation used to be the great equaliser between top players and the rest. Of course the lower ranked player isn't going to win everytime but it sure gives them a better shot at the occasional upset.
You make it sound like he's closing in on the Wimbledon record or something. "Back then, blah blah blah."

He has exactly ONE grass title. Sampras' game wasn't suited for clay, yet he has 3 clay titles. Shit happens. People need to stop complaining about what happens and stop trying to find ways to diminish a player's achievements.
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post #402 of 499 (permalink) Old 02-10-2013, 01:54 AM
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Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

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You make it sound like he's closing in on the Wimbledon record or something. "Back then, blah blah blah."

He has exactly ONE grass title. Sampras' game wasn't suited for clay, yet he has 3 clay titles. Shit happens. People need to stop complaining about what happens and stop trying to find ways to diminish a player's achievements.
Nole has a grass grand slam and multiple SFs. Sampras reached the RG SF once.

Stop putting your head in the sand and trying to make out that surface changes have had no effect.

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post #403 of 499 (permalink) Old 02-10-2013, 01:58 AM
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Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

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Nole has a grass grand slam and multiple SFs. Sampras reached the RG SF once.

Stop putting your head in the sand and trying to make out that surface changes have had no effect.

Nole is simply a better player on fast surfaces than Sampras was on slow surfaces.

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post #404 of 499 (permalink) Old 02-10-2013, 01:58 AM
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Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

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Nole has a grass grand slam and multiple SFs. Sampras reached the RG SF once.

Stop putting your head in the sand and trying to make out that surface changes have had no effect.
You need to quit pretending that the changes are all that dramatic. Novak has multiple SFs because he's that good.
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post #405 of 499 (permalink) Old 02-10-2013, 06:04 AM
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Re: Has Djokovic surpassed Stefan Edberg and/or Boris Becker?

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Imagine if Haas had the egg and no injuries.
I always assumed that all this talk about the egg was a joke. But I'm beginning to doubt it... Maybe some people really think the egg (which Nole used once or twice) is what makes Nole so mentally clutch at crucial moments in matches.

Do people really believe that the egg is so powerful?

If so, do people really believe that all the top ATP players are so stupid as to not buy an egg (whih is legal), if that gave all they needed to win slams, save MPs galore and become the #1 player in the world?

Or maybe you just haven't thought it through.

Or maybe it's just a joke, as I thought in the beginning, but in that case it's getting old.

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