The 'no let-rule' trial at Challengers is (Won't continue on after next week) - Page 4 - MensTennisForums.com

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post #46 of 120 (permalink) Old 02-14-2013, 01:12 PM
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Re: Heilbronn Challenger 2013 - 'no let-rule'

LOL, this no let rule is so annoying. I'm watching the Quimper Challenger, and some players are so annoyed when the ball luckily jumps from the net and they can't get it.
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post #47 of 120 (permalink) Old 02-14-2013, 02:23 PM
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Re: Heilbronn Challenger 2013 - 'no let-rule'

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Originally Posted by latso View Post
No advantage for anyone, just the same, except less time wasting, less machine mistakes, ergo less rants and useless waste of nerves.

Good riddance.
Exactly.

Isn't the sensitivity of the let detectors controlled by umpires anyway? I remember Roddick telling an umpire to turn the sensitivity down to its lowest setting once.

If so, it'd get rid of one more way to screw up matches in favor of one player or another.
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post #48 of 120 (permalink) Old 02-14-2013, 02:43 PM
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Re: Heilbronn Challenger 2013 - 'no let-rule'

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Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
LOL, this no let rule is so annoying. I'm watching the Quimper Challenger, and some players are so annoyed when the ball luckily jumps from the net and they can't get it.
I agree with you. When in a rallie a player's ball touches the net and falls to the opponent court, it can be annoying, but we accept it as a part of luck. However, I think that serving is properly to repeat the serve because the rallie is not 100% "in play" (as I think, personally, that the return of the serve "starts" 100% the rallie), despite the fact that the server could have made a great effort in his serve.

I'm happy to see your disagreement with the no let rule as I know that your knowledge about Challengers is huge So I guess that you know how the no let rule is working in Challengers.

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post #49 of 120 (permalink) Old 02-14-2013, 03:31 PM
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Re: Heilbronn Challenger 2013 - 'no let-rule'

i d like this rule to be applied on challenger tour all the time. but lets see

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post #50 of 120 (permalink) Old 02-14-2013, 04:08 PM
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Re: Heilbronn Challenger 2013 - 'no let-rule'

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Originally Posted by VamosRafaNadal View Post
I agree with you. When in a rallie a player's ball touches the net and falls to the opponent court, it can be annoying, but we accept it as a part of luck. However, I think that serving is properly to repeat the serve because the rallie is not 100% "in play" (as I think, personally, that the return of the serve "starts" 100% the rallie), despite the fact that the server could have made a great effort in his serve.

I'm happy to see your disagreement with the no let rule as I know that your knowledge about Challengers is huge So I guess that you know how the no let rule is working in Challengers.
It's actually the inertia a player builds when the opponent serves that makes this more annoying than the usual lucky drop shot. All players are used to counter a serve by going either left or right with either forehand or backhand, without having any time to actually move towards the side when dealing with a powerful serve. Having this inertia, it's basically impossible to reach a ball falling close to the net, because the players start off from 0 speed.

When the player is already moving on the court, he can build on his movement to reach the net in time.

Let's see what happens when we get to clay courts. Didn't get a chance to watch a Bucaramanga match, but maybe I'll watch Salinas or Santiago.
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post #51 of 120 (permalink) Old 02-14-2013, 04:16 PM
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Re: Heilbronn Challenger 2013 - 'no let-rule'

Don't like this rule at all. To me it's different when there's a let during a serve and during a rally. During a rally, both players are already in the point and fighting for it, so if the ball clips the tape there's no reason to stop the rally, and if someone gets lucky every now and then, so be it. If a ball clips the tape during a serve, either the returner will get screwed over because they have to change their shot in mid-return, or the balls just lamely dribbles over and they lose the point. Or the server could suffer if they hit a serve that bounces up high from the net, giving the returner an easy putaway. I guess it would be interesting if it was a mid-service box ball that left the returner scrambling, but how often will this scenario happen vs all the others? And sure, if any of this happens during some random point like at 15-15, whatever. But there's going to come a time when it's a crucial point that's going to be decided by some let luck. Imagine a player is serving at 5-5 30-40 third set, hits a first serve that bounces off the top of the net and gives the opponent an easy shot which they put away with ease. Now suddenly the player serving, instead of getting another chance at a first serve, has lost a crucial game. And you can bet they're going to be PISSED. So many other variations could happen. I just don't think that any more luck needs to be added in the game, we already have rally let cords, balls skipping off the line, etc.

Also, I don't see how this will really speed up the game in any significant way. Service lets constitute like what, <1% of on-court match play? I just don't see how it matters or why this is being implemented.
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post #52 of 120 (permalink) Old 02-14-2013, 04:23 PM
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Re: Heilbronn Challenger 2013 - 'no let-rule'

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Also, I don't see how this will really speed up the game in any significant way. Service lets constitute like what, <1% of on-court match play? I just don't see how it matters or why this is being implemented.
There was a study I saw somewhere. It was calculated that about 5% of serves touch the net cord and pass over. Out of those, something like:

- 55% pass over without a major change in their trajectory.
- 25% pass over outside the service box.
- 14% pass over and fall right near the net, making it impossible for the returner to reach the ball.
- 6% pass over with enough bounce to put the returner in a serious advantage.

It's mostly for that 55% (about 2.5% of all serves) that this is aiming to correct. Making the serve be repeated for clinches of the net was slowing down the game.

Also, as you can see, it is more likely that the server is at an advantage here, rather than the returner.

But to top it all, this will seriously change the game. As I was saying earlier. It's about inertia. Right now, no player is trained for this happening. They are all preparing to only swing at the service of the opponent. In the near future, if this stays, the dynamic of the return game will change, as players will focus on trying to reach the net in time if need be.

It's annoying, but I rather like the rule.
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post #53 of 120 (permalink) Old 02-14-2013, 04:29 PM
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Re: Heilbronn Challenger 2013 - 'no let-rule'

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Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
There was a study I saw somewhere. It was calculated that about 5% of serves touch the net cord and pass over. Out of those, something like:

- 55% pass over without a major change in their trajectory.
- 25% pass over outside the service box.
- 14% pass over and fall right near the net, making it impossible for the returner to reach the ball.
- 6% pass over with enough bounce to put the returner in a serious advantage.

It's mostly for that 55% (about 2.5% of all serves) that this is aiming to correct. Making the serve be repeated for clinches of the net was slowing down the game.

Also, as you can see, it is more likely that the server is at an advantage here, rather than the returner.

But to top it all, this will seriously change the game. As I was saying earlier. It's about inertia. Right now, no player is trained for this happening. They are all preparing to only swing at the service of the opponent. In the near future, if this stays, the dynamic of the return game will change, as players will focus on trying to reach the net in time if need be.

It's annoying, but I rather like the rule.
Thanks for the stats, I was thinking that it would help the server more probably. I guess now it just seems odd and it might be hard to adjust for players, but I guess they'll adapt over time. Or not, only time will tell for this rule.
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post #54 of 120 (permalink) Old 02-15-2013, 02:35 PM
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Re: Heilbronn Challenger 2013 - 'no let-rule'

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Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
There was a study I saw somewhere. It was calculated that about 5% of serves touch the net cord and pass over. Out of those, something like:

- 55% pass over without a major change in their trajectory.
- 25% pass over outside the service box.
- 14% pass over and fall right near the net, making it impossible for the returner to reach the ball.
- 6% pass over with enough bounce to put the returner in a serious advantage.

It's mostly for that 55% (about 2.5% of all serves) that this is aiming to correct. Making the serve be repeated for clinches of the net was slowing down the game.

Also, as you can see, it is more likely that the server is at an advantage here, rather than the returner.
Thanks for the stats Slasher , but I can't understand what you say in bold : how do you conclude that ? because you think that for the 55%, the no-let rule is an advantage for the server ? I think the opposite, because for those 55%, the ball is still quite often slowed down.

I fully agree with your comment about inertia, which makes that it's a completely different situation from volley-ball, but in that 55% case, I often see returners able to return the ball very easily because the trajectory hasn't changed much but the ball has been slowed down.

That's why I personally do think that this no-let rule is overall more of an advantage for the returner.

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Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
But to top it all, this will seriously change the game. As I was saying earlier. It's about inertia. Right now, no player is trained for this happening. They are all preparing to only swing at the service of the opponent. In the near future, if this stays, the dynamic of the return game will change, as players will focus on trying to reach the net in time if need be.
I don't think it would happen, because it's not enough cases imo. In volley-ball they did adapt but it was possible because there were 6 players in a team, in tennis I think the players will mostly focus on return as they always do, just have some bad surprises

and anyway if a few players were able to adapt to that, it would imo just show their ability and it would be interesting to see

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post #55 of 120 (permalink) Old 02-15-2013, 03:07 PM
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Re: Heilbronn Challenger 2013 - 'no let-rule'

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Thanks for the stats Slasher , but I can't understand what you say in bold : how do you conclude that ? because you think that for the 55%, the no-let rule is an advantage for the server ? I think the opposite, because for those 55%, the ball is still quite often slowed down.

I fully agree with your comment about inertia, which makes that it's a completely different situation from volley-ball, but in that 55% case, I often see returners able to return the ball very easily because the trajectory hasn't changed much but the ball has been slowed down.

That's why I personally do think that this no-let rule is overall more of an advantage for the returner.
What? Even if it is not a MAJOR change of trajectory, the fact is the every time it touches the net, the ball vector changes. And this is probably more disturbing to the returner than a couple of more mph of pace. The no-let rule likely benefits the server.

I am not in support of this rule change. It would add another element of luck to the game that is completely unnecessary.

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post #56 of 120 (permalink) Old 02-15-2013, 03:19 PM
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Re: Heilbronn Challenger 2013 - 'no let-rule'

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What? Even if it is not a MAJOR change of trajectory, the fact is the every time it touches the net, the ball vector changes.
there's a small change of trajectory AND it's a little bit slowed down.

I mean my opinion is based on how I see players returning serves which are called "let" without a big change in trajectory : from what I see, I had the impression that they often return them better than they do for average serves

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post #57 of 120 (permalink) Old 02-15-2013, 06:24 PM
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Re: Heilbronn Challenger 2013 - 'no let-rule'

Slasher meant that it's 14% a dead ball compared to 6% putaways, which is a minor advantage for the server.

And Orka is correct as well, saying that any, even minor changes in the trajectory of the ball gives an advantage to the server and not the returner.

Not that we need any additional advantage for the server in tennis, but imo it's such a small one, that it wouldn't matter much.

I kinda disagree about the critical dynamics change of the returning games, mentionned by Slasher, mainly because the returner makes a small jump when the ball contacts the racquet of the server, so it's easy to start in any direction necessary.

I believe that normally a ball behind the net following a serve would be generally easier to get than a ball clipping the net during a rally, simply because in 90% of the time the distance between the player and the ball is shorter on return. There is no angle, so they start straight toward it everytime.

The stats are interesting, yet i believe there is at least 3 categories between the "unable to return ball behind the net" and "easy putaway" (the 14 against 6%).

There are fewer real unreturnable drops i believe, as it can't be really measured by the one making the stats. Many of these balls will be reached i believe.

Another thing - 5% let balls is probably on fast courts, it would hardly be this much on clay i believe.

Anyhow we will have predisposition for much more trick shots on return, especially on the 55% of barely touching the net serves, so i'm 100% for the rule.

Naturally aside the other obvious arguments as speeding the game, no inacurate machinery involved and less anti umpire arguments.

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post #58 of 120 (permalink) Old 02-15-2013, 06:28 PM
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Re: Heilbronn Challenger 2013 - 'no let-rule'

I'd love for it to be implemented permanently across all forms of the game.
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post #59 of 120 (permalink) Old 02-15-2013, 07:58 PM
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Re: Heilbronn Challenger 2013 - 'no let-rule'

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there's a small change of trajectory AND it's a little bit slowed down.

I mean my opinion is based on how I see players returning serves which are called "let" without a big change in trajectory : from what I see, I had the impression that they often return them better than they do for average serves
The change of trajectory is substantial in the relatively short amount of time players have to return serve, even with whatever deduction can be assumed from a let. On a shot as fast as the serve, players read the ball and adjust for it as it's crossing the net. For its trajectory to shift in that time is a burden.

Add that to the % of dead balls as compared to sitters, and you have a slight advantage leaning toward the server.

If players seem like they return let balls better, it's most likely because everyone swings a bit more freely when they know it doesn't count.

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post #60 of 120 (permalink) Old 02-15-2013, 08:02 PM
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Re: Heilbronn Challenger 2013 - 'no let-rule'

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No advantage for anyone, just the same, except less time wasting, less machine mistakes, ergo less rants and useless waste of nerves.

Good riddance.
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