Vote the biggest victims of Surface slowness - Page 9 - MensTennisForums.com
View Poll Results: Vote the biggest victims of Surface slowness
Berdych 60 40.00%
Tsonga 88 58.67%
Del Potro 42 28.00%
Nadal 10 6.67%
Federer 79 52.67%
Murray 8 5.33%
Djokovic 7 4.67%
Simon 5 3.33%
Almagro 8 5.33%
Tomic 11 7.33%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 150. You may not vote on this poll

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post #121 of 153 (permalink) Old 01-26-2013, 02:48 PM
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Re: Vote the biggest victims of Surface slowness

And there's more from the data!
Average time the ball traveled from racquet to racquet: 2013 - 1.199 seconds; 2000 - 1.346 seconds;
Average speed of the ball before the bounce: 2013 - 25.36 m/s; 2000 - 25.31 m/s;
Average speed of the ball after the bounce: 2013 - 11.76 m/s; 2000 - 11.99 m/s;
Data tell a different story - today's game is faster!
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post #122 of 153 (permalink) Old 01-26-2013, 02:58 PM
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Re: Vote the biggest victims of Surface slowness

Whatever advantage the slower surface may give to a player, can be counteracted by a better tactics. If a player manages to put the ball bounce as close as possible to the baseline, he is giving less time to his opponent, rendering deceleration by the surface less important. And that is exactly what today best players use, especially Djokovic, Nadal and Murray. Heavy spins particularly help that.
Today's game is faster, and skills and athletic abilities are better compared to 2000. And fair and square, the best is on top!
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post #123 of 153 (permalink) Old 01-26-2013, 03:06 PM
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Re: Vote the biggest victims of Surface slowness

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Originally Posted by G.100sic View Post
Doing some basic math, a ball traveling at 120 km/h takes 0.75 seconds across the 25 meters of the court.
The ball loses a lot of pace in flight to drag, something like a third over the full length of the court (main variables are temperature and altitude, but also the size and drag coefficient of the ball).

With regard to the distance travelled, you have to calculate the length of the arc rather than a fixed line. For example, a huge topspin shot travels a bit further (and there's the double effect that spin increases the drag coefficient of the ball, so it loses even more speed).
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post #124 of 153 (permalink) Old 01-26-2013, 03:09 PM
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Re: Vote the biggest victims of Surface slowness

Comparing average shot placement (contact point of the ball bounce) between Djokovic and Wawrinka:
- Wawrinka 0.78 (of the total racquet to racquet distance);
- Djokovic 0.82.
Meaning Novak was hitting deeper.
And that makes the difference more then slowing the ball.
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post #125 of 153 (permalink) Old 01-26-2013, 03:09 PM
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Re: Vote the biggest victims of Surface slowness

Picked Tsonga, but feel he like many in the list would struggle returning serve on a faster court.

Almagro would struggle to ever break serve.

The current greatness league of active players in order of achievements to date (a factual comparison rather than fan biased assessment):

Federer 17 GS, 6 Year End Masters, 24 Master Series.
Nadal 14 GS, 27 Master Series, 1 Olympic Gold.
Djokovic 9 GS, 4 Year End Masters, 24 Master Series.


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post #126 of 153 (permalink) Old 01-26-2013, 03:10 PM
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Re: Vote the biggest victims of Surface slowness

todays eraa is not about talented tennis players

its about stamina robots- wars of attrition and fake MTOs

when a surface slows down all athletic players get the advantage because they dont need to use brains or
tennis ability- tennis tactics

all they have to do is outlast the other guy

give murray credit- he actually has court craft- ability to hit different shots
different looks on a ball
decent all around ability

doesn't count for shit in this era where you just run down everything and wait for
the other guy to tire

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post #127 of 153 (permalink) Old 01-26-2013, 03:14 PM
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Re: Vote the biggest victims of Surface slowness

Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
The ball loses a lot of pace in flight to drag, something like a third over the full length of the court (main variables are temperature and altitude, but also the size and drag coefficient of the ball).

With regard to the distance travelled, you have to calculate the length of the arc rather than a fixed line. For example, a huge topspin shot travels a bit further (and there's the double effect that spin increases the drag coefficient of the ball, so it loses even more speed).
Yet another reason to only amplify mu conclusion. This hype over the slow courts is way overrated!
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post #128 of 153 (permalink) Old 01-26-2013, 03:17 PM
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Re: Vote the biggest victims of Surface slowness

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Originally Posted by pray-for-palestine-and-israel View Post
todays eraa is not about talented tennis players

its about stamina robots- wars of attrition and fake MTOs

when a surface slows down all athletic players get the advantage because they dont need to use brains or
tennis ability- tennis tactics

all they have to do is outlast the other guy

give murray credit- he actually has court craft- ability to hit different shots
different looks on a ball
decent all around ability

doesn't count for shit in this era where you just run down everything and wait for
the other guy to tire
Actually, data shows that more talented player nowadays need not run more then his less talented opponent. And yet they tend to do run more!
I only admit they have to, only against each other!
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post #129 of 153 (permalink) Old 01-26-2013, 03:33 PM
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Re: Vote the biggest victims of Surface slowness

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Originally Posted by G.100sic View Post
Yet another reason to only amplify mu conclusion. This hype over the slow courts is way overrated!
Wellll, one of the big differences now is the balls. The allowed size range is not large, but ten years ago most were on the small side, now they're all on the large side. They also tend to fluff more nowadays, partly because the increased friction of the court surfaces tears them up more easily.


Tennis adapts to the conditions it is given though, so inevitable we see...

1) Higher bounces mean a higher playable strike zone. As a result, more tall players on tour.

2) Slower surfaces/balls means either longer rallies, which favours consistency and stamina, OR enormous baseline power to hit through it (thus more really big guys).
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post #130 of 153 (permalink) Old 01-26-2013, 03:50 PM
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Re: Vote the biggest victims of Surface slowness

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Originally Posted by G.100sic View Post
Back to the second part of the analysis... First part was Vote the biggest victims of Surface slowness
I went for 2000 AO final, Agassi vs Kafelnikov, which proved to be a tougher nutt. Firstly, for the poor quality of the video (from YouTube), and secondly, for mostly shorter points.
Anyway... On that particular surface the ratio of ball speed before and after the bounce was 2.256, so actually that was more slowing than with today's surface. Players styles wise, Kafelnikov's shots averaged at 2.181 times (variation from 1.779 to 3.073), while Agassi's averaged at 2.331 (variation from 1.698 to 3.562, so it was similar to Djokovic).
But while analyzing videos I noticed something interesting. As I said, they played shorter points, but not because of the greater speed, but because they would run for the ball a lot less then in today's game!
I wonder if the more slowing Rebound Ace meant the bounce was lower. Because I've understood low-bouncing court plays effectively faster, you have less time for your shot.

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post #131 of 153 (permalink) Old 01-27-2013, 01:25 AM
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Re: Vote the biggest victims of Surface slowness

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at everyone saying Federer. You think it's that simple? Actually he benefits from it bcs he STILL has the weapons and skill to shorten the points, to execute them, hit winners. Or at least he had in most of his career. It allows him to have shorter matches than the others, get less tired for the rest of the tournament (and that is not something you want to put aside). He is just that good offensive player that even on 'slowed' courts (like USO, AO, W) he can/could beat anyone. Yet, other offensive players (including volley players) are NOT that good and have way more trouble on slowed courts. If the courts were faster someone like Querrey would blow away someone like Murray on a good day.

And tell me, what else do you think Fed would win? He would have like 25 Slams? 10 Wimbledons? Give me a break.
Federer would definitely benefit from it these days. He can no longer withstand long rallies on a consistent basis. His only way to beat the rest of the top players (big hitters included) is to take their time away and take the initiative, which is harder to do in these conditions despite his immense skill. It'd also make him more prone to getting blown off the court by big hitters, but would give him a better fighting chance at hardcourt Slams for instance in the business end.

MTF games titles:

Suicide Tennis (5): Wimbledon 2014, World Tour Finals 2015, Madrid 2015, Kuala Lumpur 2014 and Metz 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 WTF, 1 Masters 1000, 2 ATP 250; 2 finals lost

Fill-in-the-Draw (3): US Open 2014, Rotterdam 2013 and Geneva 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 ATP 500 and 1 ATP 250

Tennis Tipping (3): Veneza and Todi 2014 (with vn01), Knoxville 2015 (with Redkop) - 3 challengers; 7 finals lost
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post #132 of 153 (permalink) Old 01-27-2013, 01:30 AM
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Re: Vote the biggest victims of Surface slowness

Federer benefitted from it in his prime. Nowadays it hinders him.

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post #133 of 153 (permalink) Old 01-27-2013, 01:33 AM
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Re: Vote the biggest victims of Surface slowness

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Federer benefitted from it in his prime. Nowadays it hinders him.
I agree with this. In his prime, it protected him from on-fire big hitting players for the most part and he was basically too good for his main rivals regardless of the conditions. These days, especially considering the rest of the top 5 is composed of moving walls, it most definitely hinders him.

MTF games titles:

Suicide Tennis (5): Wimbledon 2014, World Tour Finals 2015, Madrid 2015, Kuala Lumpur 2014 and Metz 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 WTF, 1 Masters 1000, 2 ATP 250; 2 finals lost

Fill-in-the-Draw (3): US Open 2014, Rotterdam 2013 and Geneva 2015 - 1 Slam, 1 ATP 500 and 1 ATP 250

Tennis Tipping (3): Veneza and Todi 2014 (with vn01), Knoxville 2015 (with Redkop) - 3 challengers; 7 finals lost
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post #134 of 153 (permalink) Old 01-27-2013, 03:19 AM
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Re: Vote the biggest victims of Surface slowness

LOL Fed sympathizers say talented players in the top 40 don't exist.
Then, the bad clay or grass players who were ranked in the top 5 in the weak era were geniuses.
The disgraced weak era clowns had 1-2 wins over the top 3 great players & then disappeared for 5 years.

Weak clowns were losing for a decade because they got worse and worse by age 25.
It wasn't because Federer handled big servers on slower courts. Big servers & slow servers who failed in the weak era could win a few easy San Jose, Doha, Rotterdam, Halle, Queens Club & Houston titles, but then choked on match points & set points versus Federer. They weren't athletic enough, so they avoided Federer as much as possible because they knew they would've retired 4-5 years earlier with less money & fewer titles.

The truly talented ones are 28-35 yet they are making at least qfs of slams or winning 2-5 titles a year. Even Tsonga & Berdych could beat Federer at age 26 & 28.
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post #135 of 153 (permalink) Old 01-27-2013, 04:47 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Vote the biggest victims of Surface slowness

Pink benefited heavily.
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