Ok - so why do we still have the challenge system? - MensTennisForums.com

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post #1 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-16-2013, 11:01 AM Thread Starter
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Ok - so why do we still have the challenge system?

We have lines-people. They make a call. But if the chair umpire decides their call is wrong he/she overrules. OK - so far so good.

But then, if the player appeals, the ultimate authority of the electronic system is used to decide. We then have this spectacle of a slow motion replay to eventually reveal what the system would know instantly without the replay: is it in - or out?

This system has been around some years now and computing power has advanced substantially. Surely we could now dispense with the lines-people and the umpire needing to decide or the players needing to question calls and simply have the computer tell when the ball is out immediately on a display the chair umpire can see and hear?

Is it worth having errors and the players having to decide when to appeal just so we can have the spectacle of the slow motion replay? Or should we update the whole thing and have the computer make the call immediately? What do you think?
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post #2 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-16-2013, 11:08 AM
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Re: Ok - so why do we still have the challenge system?

I think you'd become a millionaire if you make a system fast enough to replace the line judges.

Till then - we'll have the show, which is fun enough for me and i prefer it this way.
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post #3 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-16-2013, 11:09 AM
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Re: Ok - so why do we still have the challenge system?

Maybe it's still not fast enough. To be immediate enough it would need to be a matter of 100-300 milliseconds or around that speed.
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post #4 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-16-2013, 11:11 AM
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Re: Ok - so why do we still have the challenge system?

It's not a "spectacle" or a slow-motion replay. A slow-motion replay would be an actual replay of what the TV cameras filmed. Hawkeye is a computer re-creation of the shot, it's not even actually filming. And it is not being slowed down for dramatic effect; the technology is not instant. In many cases it takes more than 5 seconds to get the challenge system to reproduce the shot on screen.

the only thing is I think if a linesperson makes one call and the chair umpire overrules, there should be an automatic Hawkeye review, rather than forcing the player to use his.

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post #5 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-16-2013, 11:24 AM
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Re: Ok - so why do we still have the challenge system?

I would guess that the technology would easily be fast enough for an almost instant call. In that case it should obviously be used at every point, simply making a sound when a ball is out.

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post #6 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-16-2013, 11:24 AM
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Re: Ok - so why do we still have the challenge system?

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Originally Posted by Kat_YYZ View Post
It's not a "spectacle" or a slow-motion replay. A slow-motion replay would be an actual replay of what the TV cameras filmed. Hawkeye is a computer re-creation of the shot, it's not even actually filming. And it is not being slowed down for dramatic effect; the technology is not instant. In many cases it takes more than 5 seconds to get the challenge system to reproduce the shot on screen.

the only thing is I think if a linesperson makes one call and the chair umpire overrules, there should be an automatic Hawkeye review, rather than forcing the player to use his.
It is actually filming, by many cameras from different angles.

An automatic review when the umpire overrules means no more overrules at all whatsoever.
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post #7 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-16-2013, 11:25 AM
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Re: Ok - so why do we still have the challenge system?

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I would guess that the technology would easily be fast enough for an almost instant call. In that case it should obviously be used at every point, simply making a sound when a ball is out.
you're guessing wrong, that's the point
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post #8 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-16-2013, 11:27 AM
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Re: Ok - so why do we still have the challenge system?

Not too long ago there was a machine at some events that made a sound on close faults. It's interesting that technology advances hasn't been able to produce this for all calls.

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post #9 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-16-2013, 11:35 AM
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Re: Ok - so why do we still have the challenge system?

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It is actually filming, by many cameras from different angles.
no, I know there are special cameras filming. I just meant they don't show "film" of the match. What the cameras capture is used to make that videogame-type animation that we see when we watch a challenge review. We don't see the actual court or ball or background; just a computer simulation.

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An automatic review when the umpire overrules means no more overrules at all whatsoever.
Well, that's fine as well. Then we'll just have players challenging linesmen. As it is, when you have one official (linesperson) saying 'out' and the other official (umpire) saying in, I can understand why players almost always challenge; they know that one official saw it their way. But it sort of lures them into using up a challenge.

I guess you could say "hey, that's the players" problem.' But another way to look at it is: if the linesperson and the umpire don't agree, shouldn't we go to the video review to ensure that the call is correct?

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post #10 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-16-2013, 11:45 AM
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Re: Ok - so why do we still have the challenge system?

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no, I know there are special cameras filming. I just meant they don't show "film" of the match. What the cameras capture is used to make that videogame-type animation that we see when we watch a challenge review. We don't see the actual court or ball or background; just a computer simulation.


Well, that's fine as well. Then we'll just have players challenging linesmen. As it is, when you have one official (linesperson) saying 'out' and the other official (umpire) saying in, I can understand why players almost always challenge; they know that one official saw it their way. But it sort of lures them into using up a challenge.

I guess you could say "hey, that's the players" problem.' But another way to look at it is: if the linesperson and the umpire don't agree, shouldn't we go to the video review to ensure that the call is correct?
yes and overall with the technology working already we get as few overrules as ever (that's why i like Momo Lahyiany, coz he isn't shy speaking his position).
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post #11 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-16-2013, 12:01 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Ok - so why do we still have the challenge system?

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Maybe it's still not fast enough. To be immediate enough it would need to be a matter of 100-300 milliseconds or around that speed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat_YYZ View Post
It's not a "spectacle" or a slow-motion replay. A slow-motion replay would be an actual replay of what the TV cameras filmed. Hawkeye is a computer re-creation of the shot, it's not even actually filming. And it is not being slowed down for dramatic effect; the technology is not instant. In many cases it takes more than 5 seconds to get the challenge system to reproduce the shot on screen.

the only thing is I think if a linesperson makes one call and the chair umpire overrules, there should be an automatic Hawkeye review, rather than forcing the player to use his.
Yes, I think every one is aware it is a simulated slow motion replay. You quote that it takes as much as 5 seconds. Another poster states we would need it be as fast as 300 milliseconds. Ok - lets say that means a speed improvement of around 20x. In computing terms, a 20x speed increase is nothing. The system was introduced in 2005. Over 8 years applying moores law (and using the more conservative original 2 year doubling) we would have 4 doublings or a factor of 16 by now without even improving the algorithm!

It definitely could now be done in 250milliseconds or less by now if this was desired sufficiently. The point is that for some reason it is not desired.
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post #12 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-16-2013, 12:03 PM
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Re: Ok - so why do we still have the challenge system?

The system is not suitable for real-time, as the in-between points time will be severely increased. The system takes about 5 seconds to render the input from all 10 cameras into a 3D trajectory.

To answer the question though, there is a simpler answer. They won't do it, because the system has not yet gained the full trust of players, officials, and even some tournament organizers.
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post #13 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-16-2013, 12:12 PM
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Re: Ok - so why do we still have the challenge system?

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Yes, I think every one is aware it is a simulated slow motion replay. You quote that it takes as much as 5 seconds. Another poster states we would need it be as fast as 300 milliseconds. Ok - lets say that means a speed improvement of around 20x. In computing terms, a 20x speed increase is nothing. The system was introduced in 2005. Over 8 years applying moores law (and using the more conservative original 2 year doubling) we would have 4 doublings or a factor of 16 by now without even improving the algorithm!

It definitely could now be done in 250milliseconds or less by now if this was desired sufficiently. The point is that for some reason it is not desired.
Moore's "law" posits that the number of transistors that can be fitted onto a CPU should double each year. It doesn't say anything about processing speed doubling each year.
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post #14 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-16-2013, 12:28 PM
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Re: Ok - so why do we still have the challenge system?

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Originally Posted by Kat_YYZ View Post
It's not a "spectacle" or a slow-motion replay. A slow-motion replay would be an actual replay of what the TV cameras filmed. Hawkeye is a computer re-creation of the shot, it's not even actually filming. And it is not being slowed down for dramatic effect; the technology is not instant. In many cases it takes more than 5 seconds to get the challenge system to reproduce the shot on screen.

the only thing is I think if a linesperson makes one call and the chair umpire overrules, there should be an automatic Hawkeye review, rather than forcing the player to use his.
I get your point, but sometimes overrules are so manifestly just that players don't bother to challenge. So, I think an automatic review is a bit of overkill.
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post #15 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-16-2013, 12:52 PM
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Re: Ok - so why do we still have the challenge system?

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The system is not suitable for real-time, as the in-between points time will be severely increased. The system takes about 5 seconds to render the input from all 10 cameras into a 3D trajectory.

To answer the question though, there is a simpler answer. They won't do it, because the system has not yet gained the full trust of players, officials, and even some tournament organizers.
Do you know a source, from the manufacturer or otherwise, that mentions these 5 seconds? If all data recording and analysis is digital, I don't see why this limit exists.

This 6 year old article says 3 seconds, and also that the animation is delayed on purpose for entertainment. http://www.popsci.com/scitech/articl...racy-major-fun

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