7 Wimbledon Titles. Who is Real King of Grass?: William Renshaw vs Roger Federer? - Page 5 - MensTennisForums.com

View Poll Results: WWW: King of Grass
Roger Federer [SUI] 47 78.33%
William Renshaw [GBR] 13 21.67%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #61 of 85 (permalink) Old 12-30-2012, 03:32 PM
Registered User
 
Super Djoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,036
                     
Re: 7 Wimbledon Titles. Who is Real King of Grass?: William Renshaw vs Roger Federer?

Such a fail thread ! what about Pete Sampras ? for me it,s Pistol Pete !

Novak Djokovic [SIZE=6].

6 Australian Opens
1 French Open
3 Wimbledons
2 [COLOR=Cyan]US Opens[/
Super Djoker is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 85 (permalink) Old 12-30-2012, 04:23 PM
Registered User
 
howyesno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,274
                     
Re: Who is the Real King of Grass: William Renshaw vs Roger Federer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Litotes View Post
No, the 90s and until they slowed the grass ought to be the weakest grass era. Why? Because at no other time in history has there been less rewards for good grass players. Before there were more important tournaments on grass, so more reason to be good at it. Now, the difference between grass and other surfaces is less, so being good on grass will also grant you success elsewhere.
seriously? if there was no reward for good grass players in 90s, how comes there were so many players with a game tailor made for grass, like ivanisevic, henman, philippoussis, rafter, krajicek, rusedski among others. if you say "no other time in history" that would imply this particular time in history is more rewarding for good grass players, yet there is not a single one grass specialist on top level.

in reality, sampras competed in much stronger competition and is, in my opinion, the best grass player ever.

"I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered."

-- George Best
howyesno is offline  
post #63 of 85 (permalink) Old 12-30-2012, 04:36 PM
Registered User
 
TigerTim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: London (sadly)
Posts: 14,463
                     
Re: 7 Wimbledon Titles. Who is Real King of Grass?: William Renshaw vs Roger Federer?

One must remember that in the 90s grass courters also had carpet with which to utilise their skills and gain many points with serve volley. Basel, Vienna, Paris, Kremlin Cup, St Petersburg, Lyon, Rotterdam even London were all major carpet events.

On Murray
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamvol View Post
He probably just hangs about in 2nd place protecting himself with 3 bananas whilst waiting for the person in the lead to get blue shelled.
1. Murray wins Wimbledon 2016 after Djokovic is blue shelled by Querrey. Thanks Querrey!

2. Murray wins Olympic Gold for the second time after Djokovic is blue shelled by Del Potro. Thanks Del Potro!

3. Murray wins US Open 2016 after Djokovic is blue shelled by [pending]. Thanks [pending]!

TigerTim is offline  
post #64 of 85 (permalink) Old 12-30-2012, 05:10 PM
Registered User
 
tyruk14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,194
                     
Re: 7 Wimbledon Titles. Who is Real King of Grass?: William Renshaw vs Roger Federer?

Pete Sampras.

14
tyruk14 is offline  
post #65 of 85 (permalink) Old 12-30-2012, 05:39 PM
ALT-0
 
Litotes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Norway
Age: 43
Posts: 56,910
                     
Re: Who is the Real King of Grass: William Renshaw vs Roger Federer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by howyesno View Post
seriously? if there was no reward for good grass players in 90s, how comes there were so many players with a game tailor made for grass, like ivanisevic, henman, philippoussis, rafter, krajicek, rusedski among others. if you say "no other time in history" that would imply this particular time in history is more rewarding for good grass players, yet there is not a single one grass specialist on top level.

in reality, sampras competed in much stronger competition and is, in my opinion, the best grass player ever.
I didn't say "No reward", I said "less". Still more than in many other sports.

The fact that noone now looks like a grass specialist is because being good on grass nowadays will also give you better results elsewhere. And the fact that the style of play which was successful on fast grass is less so on slow grass. So, as I said, if you feel the difference calls for both a "fast grass King" and a "slow grass King" then be my guest. If you choose just one, then Sampras is IMO no longer a contender, having been surpassed by Federer both in Wimbledon and in the grass warmups.
Litotes is offline  
post #66 of 85 (permalink) Old 12-30-2012, 06:02 PM
Registered User
 
howyesno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,274
                     
Re: 7 Wimbledon Titles. Who is Real King of Grass?: William Renshaw vs Roger Federer?

you made a strawman with "fast grass King" and a "slow grass King" and want to move discussion in that direction. brilliant strategy. the fact is - there were no grass specialists for federer at all to compete when he was winning wimbledons, while there were bunch of them for sampras in his time.

not to mention you never cared to explain logic how the era with grass specialists is weaker than era with no grass specialists?!

and because I'm in a good mood, free hint for you: grass is grass, physics of the grass game didn't change at all, the ball still stays low on slices, ball still bounces irregular from time to time, it is still much harder to move than on hard courts and clay. for the real reason for play style change (no specialists) you need to take a look at strings and rackets.

"I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered."

-- George Best
howyesno is offline  
post #67 of 85 (permalink) Old 12-30-2012, 06:34 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Age: 36
Posts: 630
                     
Re: Who is the Real King of Grass: William Renshaw vs Roger Federer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTim View Post
"The 1889 final however, may have been Renshaw's most memorable. He faced Harry Barlow in the All-Comers final for the right to play his brother in the Wimbledon final. After forcing the match to a fifth set, Renshaw fell behind 0-5 and faced six match points.

He would save all of them and defeat Barlow in one of the most incredible comebacks ever seen."

nice.
Harry Barlow must be one of the biggest chokers in history.

I read that article too, not bad. It said that there were 2500 people watching Renshaw winning in 1881 and packed houses elsewhere too. When you look at the crowds at Doha and China, I'd say that 1881 doesn't sound that bad after all.
Mr.Michael is offline  
post #68 of 85 (permalink) Old 12-30-2012, 07:40 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 401
                     
Re: 7 Wimbledon Titles. Who is Real King of Grass?: William Renshaw vs Roger Federer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTim View Post
One must remember that in the 90s grass courters also had carpet with which to utilise their skills and gain many points with serve volley. Basel, Vienna, Paris, Kremlin Cup, St Petersburg, Lyon, Rotterdam even London were all major carpet events.
Can we stick to the 1890s and 80s instead of the 1990s since that is what the thread is about?
Serve&Volley01 is offline  
post #69 of 85 (permalink) Old 12-30-2012, 07:43 PM
Registered User
 
TigerTim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: London (sadly)
Posts: 14,463
                     
Re: 7 Wimbledon Titles. Who is Real King of Grass?: William Renshaw vs Roger Federer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serve&Volley01 View Post
Can we stick to the 1890s and 80s instead of the 1990s since that is what the thread is about?


Didn't federer begin his career in the 90s

On Murray
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamvol View Post
He probably just hangs about in 2nd place protecting himself with 3 bananas whilst waiting for the person in the lead to get blue shelled.
1. Murray wins Wimbledon 2016 after Djokovic is blue shelled by Querrey. Thanks Querrey!

2. Murray wins Olympic Gold for the second time after Djokovic is blue shelled by Del Potro. Thanks Del Potro!

3. Murray wins US Open 2016 after Djokovic is blue shelled by [pending]. Thanks [pending]!

TigerTim is offline  
post #70 of 85 (permalink) Old 12-30-2012, 07:48 PM
ALT-0
 
Litotes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Norway
Age: 43
Posts: 56,910
                     
Re: 7 Wimbledon Titles. Who is Real King of Grass?: William Renshaw vs Roger Federer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by howyesno View Post
you made a strawman with "fast grass King" and a "slow grass King" and want to move discussion in that direction. brilliant strategy. the fact is - there were no grass specialists for federer at all to compete when he was winning wimbledons, while there were bunch of them for sampras in his time.

not to mention you never cared to explain logic how the era with grass specialists is weaker than era with no grass specialists?!

and because I'm in a good mood, free hint for you: grass is grass, physics of the grass game didn't change at all, the ball still stays low on slices, ball still bounces irregular from time to time, it is still much harder to move than on hard courts and clay. for the real reason for play style change (no specialists) you need to take a look at strings and rackets.
I'm not the one who introduced the concept of fast grass as somehow being a mitigating factor enabling a player with less merits to be regarded as greater than his superior. For me, grass is grass. If you want to find the greatest grass player of all time, look for who has won most on it. You'll then find you have a choice between Laver and Federer. Laver won more, but also had more opportunities. How you weigh that is up to you. Sampras, however, won less than Federer with exactly the same opportunities. As it is patently impossible to prove he faced stronger opponents, no circumstantial evidence to suggest that he did, and theories can be made in either direction, sticking to the merits seems the obvious solution.
Litotes is offline  
post #71 of 85 (permalink) Old 12-30-2012, 08:15 PM
Banned!
 
heya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,580
                     
Re: 7 Wimbledon Titles. Who is Real King of Grass?: William Renshaw vs Roger Federer?

Renshaw could play all court tennis because no one beat him 7 times when he didn't do his best.
No one had improved shoes and a powerful racket back then.
He would've defeated Henman, Ancic, Nadal & Roddick in any era. Federer would lose if he faces match point because he can't defend the court with his own volleys..

Borg and Sampras only had tough matches with great Wimbledon opponents.
Federer struggled badly against inconsistent grass players including ones outside the top 40..
heya is offline  
post #72 of 85 (permalink) Old 12-30-2012, 08:23 PM
Banned!
 
Corey Feldman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 95,412
                     
Re: 7 Wimbledon Titles. Who is Real King of Grass?: William Renshaw vs Roger Federer?

when Renshaw was winning Wimbledon = no player could serve 130MPH
when Borg was winning Wimbledon = 1 player could serve 130MPH
when Sampras was winning Wimbledon = 5 players could serve 130MPH
when Federeich winning Wimbledon = 50 players could serve 130MPH
Corey Feldman is offline  
post #73 of 85 (permalink) Old 12-30-2012, 10:27 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,942
                     
Re: 7 Wimbledon Titles. Who is Real King of Grass?: William Renshaw vs Roger Federer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey Feldman View Post
when Renshaw was winning Wimbledon = no player could serve 130MPH
when Borg was winning Wimbledon = 1 player could serve 130MPH
when Sampras was winning Wimbledon = 5 players could serve 130MPH
when Federeich winning Wimbledon = 50 players could serve 130MPH

Owned!
atennisfan is offline  
post #74 of 85 (permalink) Old 12-30-2012, 10:28 PM
Registered User
 
TigerTim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: London (sadly)
Posts: 14,463
                     
Re: 7 Wimbledon Titles. Who is Real King of Grass?: William Renshaw vs Roger Federer?

Racket technology?

On Murray
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamvol View Post
He probably just hangs about in 2nd place protecting himself with 3 bananas whilst waiting for the person in the lead to get blue shelled.
1. Murray wins Wimbledon 2016 after Djokovic is blue shelled by Querrey. Thanks Querrey!

2. Murray wins Olympic Gold for the second time after Djokovic is blue shelled by Del Potro. Thanks Del Potro!

3. Murray wins US Open 2016 after Djokovic is blue shelled by [pending]. Thanks [pending]!

TigerTim is offline  
post #75 of 85 (permalink) Old 12-31-2012, 02:54 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 580
                     
Re: 7 Wimbledon Titles. Who is Real King of Grass?: William Renshaw vs Roger Federer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by howyesno View Post
not to mention you never cared to explain logic how the era with grass specialists is weaker than era with no grass specialists?!
Take a 50 year old who has never played tennis and train him to play on grass courts exclusively. You will then have a grass court specialist who in reality is worse on grass than any top 50 player today. This example shows you that specialisation in itself has nothing to do with skill level or competition.
Benny_Maths is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the MensTennisForums.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome