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post #61 of 105 (permalink) Old 12-04-2012, 03:32 PM
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Re: Rank the top 8 players from most offensive to most defensive

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Originally Posted by Federer-Fan View Post
Nadal in third position and Djokovic in seventh position ???
Absolutely. Nadal is an aggressive player and he would much more often take full control of the point whenever he gets a position compared to Djokovic.

Djokovic would play 3 times more useless FH shots in a rally compared to Nadal.

Only Federer and Tsonga are players with whom you know that if they get a FH position they would just go for a 2 shot finish of the point. Them 2 and Nadal.

Del Potro and Berdych are close of course, but still a bit behind those 3.

For me the way you handle a favorable or neutral FH position is what defines how offensive you are in modern tennis.
BHs are to defend, S&V and chip&charge are for surprise, serve is a matter of ability, not decision most of the time, finishing the point at the net or with the FH is the same in terms of offensive minded approach, etc.

Both Djokovic and Murray would toy around rather than push things ahead, compared to even Ferrer in this list.
Also perhaps because they both have more security in their BHs and enough stamina to endure the longest rallies, but still the conclusion is the very same at the end of the day.
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post #62 of 105 (permalink) Old 12-04-2012, 03:42 PM
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Re: Rank the top 8 players from most offensive to most defensive

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Originally Posted by Fiberlight1 View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxQxN7fNhDk

Not even a Federer fan but that's pretty offensive.
Show me something under pressure like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghRMOORLZKU

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post #63 of 105 (permalink) Old 12-04-2012, 04:45 PM
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Re: Rank the top 8 players from most offensive to most defensive

(1) Federer
(2) Del Potro
(3) Tsonga
(4) Nadal
(5) Berdych
(6) Djokovic
(7) Ferrer
(8) Murray

Last edited by challenger; 12-04-2012 at 04:51 PM.
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post #64 of 105 (permalink) Old 12-04-2012, 04:48 PM
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Re: Rank the top 8 players from most offensive to most defensive

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Originally Posted by challenger View Post
(1) Federer
(2) Del Potro
(3) Tsonga
(4) Nadal
(5) Berdych
(6) Djokovic
(7) Ferrer
(8) Murray

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post #65 of 105 (permalink) Old 12-05-2012, 03:56 AM
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Re: Rank the top 8 players from most offensive to most defensive

1 Berdych
2 Tsonga
3 Federer
4 Del Potro
-----
5 Djokovic
6 Ferrer
7 Murray
.
.
.
.
.
8 Nadal
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post #66 of 105 (permalink) Old 12-05-2012, 08:44 AM
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Re: Rank the top 8 players from most offensive to most defensive

Tsonga is the most attacking, and Murray is the most defensive. That seems to be the Consensus judging by the lists

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post #67 of 105 (permalink) Old 12-05-2012, 09:38 AM
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Re: Rank the top 8 players from most offensive to most defensive

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Originally Posted by latso View Post
Absolutely. Nadal is an aggressive player and he would much more often take full control of the point whenever he gets a position compared to Djokovic.

Djokovic would play 3 times more useless FH shots in a rally compared to Nadal.

Only Federer and Tsonga are players with whom you know that if they get a FH position they would just go for a 2 shot finish of the point. Them 2 and Nadal.

Del Potro and Berdych are close of course, but still a bit behind those 3.

For me the way you handle a favorable or neutral FH position is what defines how offensive you are in modern tennis.
BHs are to defend, S&V and chip&charge are for surprise, serve is a matter of ability, not decision most of the time, finishing the point at the net or with the FH is the same in terms of offensive minded approach, etc.

Both Djokovic and Murray would toy around rather than push things ahead, compared to even Ferrer in this list.
Also perhaps because they both have more security in their BHs and enough stamina to endure the longest rallies, but still the conclusion is the very same at the end of the day.
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post #68 of 105 (permalink) Old 12-05-2012, 09:53 AM
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Re: Rank the top 8 players from most offensive to most defensive

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Originally Posted by munZe konZa View Post
so federer is offensive?
Has he ever saved match points?
What about his slicing and dicing, is that offensive as well?
This post is the most offensive thing in the thread.

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post #69 of 105 (permalink) Old 12-05-2012, 10:03 AM
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Re: Rank the top 8 players from most offensive to most defensive

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Originally Posted by latso View Post
Absolutely. Nadal is an aggressive player and he would much more often take full control of the point whenever he gets a position compared to Djokovic.

Djokovic would play 3 times more useless FH shots in a rally compared to Nadal.

Only Federer and Tsonga are players with whom you know that if they get a FH position they would just go for a 2 shot finish of the point. Them 2 and Nadal.

Del Potro and Berdych are close of course, but still a bit behind those 3.

For me the way you handle a favorable or neutral FH position is what defines how offensive you are in modern tennis.
BHs are to defend, S&V and chip&charge are for surprise, serve is a matter of ability, not decision most of the time, finishing the point at the net or with the FH is the same in terms of offensive minded approach, etc.

Both Djokovic and Murray would toy around rather than push things ahead, compared to even Ferrer in this list.
Also perhaps because they both have more security in their BHs and enough stamina to endure the longest rallies, but still the conclusion is the very same at the end of the day.
As often with your posts, I can read some relevant intuitions and some mistakes imo.

Many people are very impressed by the potential power of Nadal's, Del Potro's and in a lesser extent Berdych's forehands, I'm very impressed as well, that's impressive for sure,

... but it's a mistake imo to define the whole player's game by that maximum power potential and that's where I disagree with those people (Lenders does the same mistake for Del Potro imo).

How often do these players really use those maximum power forehands ? not so often because that's impossible to use them constantly.

Besides, tennis is not only about power, it's also a lot about angles, changes of directions, changes of depth or spin, and Nadal and Del Potro are not very good at that imo. That's very important to do that : I remember Nadal praising Nishikori's ability to change directions of his shots. And when you see Berdych and Del Potro, Berdych is less powerful, needs a better position to be able to fully accelerate, but is clearly better to change directions.

As for Nadal, the quantity of spin he uses makes it difficult to be so offensive constantly. Look at Nadal-Ferrer match-up for instance : Ferrer is much more often the offender in that match-up ! He doesn't have Nadal's power but Ferrer's ability for angles and to change directions and spins is underrated imo.

Same for Djokovic's ability for angles and to change directions and quantity of spin ... and also the fact that the backhand can indeed be used in an offensive way contrary to what you say : if you don't consider at all Djokovic's or Murray's ability to attack with their backhand, you forget a lot !

I really think this "maximum power" is given too much importance by many people on MTF.

But something which is underrated on the other side is Del Potro's and Nadal's ability to put their opponent on the defensive with their serve

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Last edited by duong; 12-05-2012 at 11:42 AM.
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post #70 of 105 (permalink) Old 12-05-2012, 11:30 AM
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Re: Rank the top 8 players from most offensive to most defensive

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Originally Posted by duong View Post
I really think this "maximum power" is given too much importance by many people on MTF.
This. Ballbashers are overrated.

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post #71 of 105 (permalink) Old 12-05-2012, 11:30 AM
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Re: Rank the top 8 players from most offensive to most defensive

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Originally Posted by duong View Post
As often with your posts, I can read some relevant intuitions and some mistakes imo.

Many people are very impressed by the potential power of Nadal's, Del Potro's and in a lesser extent Berdych's forehands, I'm very impressed as well, that's impressive for sure,

... but it's a mistake imo to define the whole player's game by that maximum power potential and that's where I disagree with those people (Lenders does the same mistake for Del Potro imo).

How often do these players really use those maximum power forehands ? not so often because that's impossible to use them constantly.

Besides, tennis is not only about power, it's also a lot about angles, changes of directions, changes of depth or spin, and Nadal and Del Potro are not very good at that imo. That's very important to do that : I remember Nadal insisting on Nishikori's ability to change directions. And when you see Berdych and Del Potro, Berdych is less powerful, needs a much better position to be able to fully accelerate, but is clearly better to change directions.

As for Nadal, the quantity of spin he uses makes it difficult to be so offensive constantly. Look at Nadal-Ferrer match-up for instance : Ferrer is much more often the offender in that match-up ! He doesn't have Nadal's power but Ferrer's ability for angles and to change directions and spins is underrated imo.

Same for Djokovic's ability for angles and to change directions and quantity of spin ... and also the fact that the backhand can indeed be used in an offensive way contrary to what you say : if you don't consider at all Djokovic's or Murray's ability to attack with their backhand, you forget a lot !

I really think this "maximum power" is given too much importance by many people on MTF.

But something which is underrated on the other side is Del Potro's and Nadal's ability to put their opponent on the defensive with their serve
Great post and well explained.

just don't agree with bolded part. Delpo's shots maybe look more powerful because of visual aspect( huge swings ) but Berdych is maybe the cleanest hitter on tour, times the ball perfectly and with zero effort comparing to delpo provides bombs, specially on FH side, pure easy power. Only guy from current era who poses such easy power was peak Davydenko. Even if I anything but liking Berdych it's great to watch how with effortless motion hitting bombs

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post #72 of 105 (permalink) Old 12-05-2012, 11:36 AM
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Re: Rank the top 8 players from most offensive to most defensive

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Originally Posted by samanosuke View Post
Great post and well explained.

just don't agree with bolded part. Delpo's shots maybe look more powerful because of visual aspect( huge swings ) but Berdych is maybe the cleanest hitter on tour, times the ball perfectly and with zero effort comparing to delpo provides bombs, specially on FH side, pure easy power. Only guy from current era who poses such easy power was peak Davydenko. Even if I anything but liking Berdych it's great to watch how with effortless motion hitting bombs
Berdych has a very beautiful and smooth shot, rather like Federer imo, but imo Del Potro has more natural power.

But I don't mean that Del Po is only about power : he has a great hand talent imo but he lacks variety at the moment imo, I think that's something he should work on.

I think Berdych did a great job on that in recent years.

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post #73 of 105 (permalink) Old 12-05-2012, 12:10 PM
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Re: Rank the top 8 players from most offensive to most defensive

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Originally Posted by TBkeeper View Post
My mind is blown apart after this
Nalbandian, Davydenko and Safin disaprove
There is one player who turns around the FH to play a BH - Tsvetana Pironkova.

Anyone else would play a FH rather than a BH and the fact that they can make winners with the BH, doesn't mean it's an offensive tool. They use it to counter attack, sometimes to attack as well, but in terms of % for attacking you'd use the FH in 99% of the time whenever you have the choice.

Mind gathered back together. You're welcome.
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post #74 of 105 (permalink) Old 12-05-2012, 12:14 PM
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Re: Rank the top 8 players from most offensive to most defensive

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Originally Posted by munZe konZa View Post
so federer is offensive?
Has he ever saved match points?
What about his slicing and dicing, is that offensive as well?
You can be an offensive player even if you've never saved a single match point.

Here's a record, though:

Has Federer ever won a match from match-point down?
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post #75 of 105 (permalink) Old 12-05-2012, 12:16 PM
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Re: Rank the top 8 players from most offensive to most defensive

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Originally Posted by latso View Post
There is one player who turns around the FH to play a BH - Tsvetana Pironkova.
on the men's side very few players do it, the most famous one being Benoît Paire.

Even Almagro or even Murray they rather turn their backhand to use their forehand to attack.

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