If Djokovic stays the No. 1 until October, he will overtake Nadal... - Page 19 - MensTennisForums.com

 
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post #271 of 742 (permalink) Old 12-17-2012, 03:07 PM
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Re: If Djokovic stays the No. 1 until October, he will overtake Nadal...

5555 Relentless.
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post #272 of 742 (permalink) Old 12-17-2012, 06:00 PM
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Re: If Djokovic stays the No. 1 until October, he will overtake Nadal...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
It's irrelevant for people who are tennis experts. It's relevant for people, including me, who are not tennis experts, they can not comprehend which argument is more sound in regard to this complex issue.
I thought you were calling into question the expertise of MTF members to judge on this particular issue (not being experts). That's why I said "you don't need to be a publicly recognized expert to have expertise on a subject".

Now you've clarified, it seems all you're saying is that you yourself do not have the expertise to judge either way, so you're going to choose to believe Sampras. And that's fine (disregarding the choice of 'expert'). But nothing follows from that. It doesn't follow for example that anyone's arguments are wrong or 'invalid', until they produce their 'expert card'. No one has to demonstrate their expertise to you, because as you said, you're not making any "positive claims".

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Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
Why I need to answer that question?
Because it would help establish where we disagree. And because I'm just asking what your position is!
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post #273 of 742 (permalink) Old 12-17-2012, 06:55 PM
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Re: If Djokovic stays the No. 1 until October, he will overtake Nadal...

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Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
It's relevant. I'm a non-expert on tennis and the debate here is about a complex tennis issue. Non-experts can not comprehend which argument is more solid on an complex issue.
No, I said it's not relevant and I'm correct in this. Just because I cannot convince you it does not follow that I'm wrong. You are - as yourself stated - a non-expert, not qualified to evaluate whether I am correct or not. You do yourself no favours by trying.
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post #274 of 742 (permalink) Old 12-21-2012, 09:27 AM Thread Starter
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Re: If Djokovic stays the No. 1 until October, he will overtake Nadal...

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Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
That's why I said "you don't need to be a publicly recognized expert to have expertise on a subject".
You did not answer my question:

You quoted post where I stated that "best evidence of expertise is proof that a person is widely recognized as a expert". Now, explain why that statement means that I said you "need to be publicitly recognized expert to have expertise on a subject"?

Quote:
It doesn't follow for example that anyone's arguments are wrong or 'invalid', until they produce their 'expert card'.
I did not say that.

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No one has to demonstrate their expertise to you, because as you said, you're not making any "positive claims".
Well, as I said, I'm a non-expert so need proof that someone is an expert in regard to complex issues.

Quote:
Because it would help establish where we disagree. And because I'm just asking what your position is!
You finally made it clear. I do not think that Sampras is a expert tennis historian/statistician.

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Originally Posted by Litotes View Post
You are - as yourself stated - a non-expert, not qualified to evaluate whether I am correct or not.
Singularity understood what I wanted to say, so read carefully what he said.
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post #275 of 742 (permalink) Old 12-21-2012, 09:33 AM
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Re: If Djokovic stays the No. 1 until October, he will overtake Nadal...

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Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
Singularity understood what I wanted to say, so read carefully what he said.
The understanding problem is on your end, not mine. If you choose to follow an "expert" of your own choice blindly instead of listening to arguments, then by all means do so. Just don't expect others to agree with you.
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post #276 of 742 (permalink) Old 12-21-2012, 10:21 AM
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Re: If Djokovic stays the No. 1 until October, he will overtake Nadal...

Another prediction from Sampras.

http://www.10sballs.com/2012/12/07/p...ss-his-record/
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post #277 of 742 (permalink) Old 12-21-2012, 10:31 AM
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Re: If Djokovic stays the No. 1 until October, he will overtake Nadal...

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Originally Posted by Roy Emerson View Post
"If he stays healthy and plays for four or five more years". I'd say those conditions are less probable than his prediction.

The headline is unrelated to the text, btw. Not particularly uncommon for such articles.
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post #278 of 742 (permalink) Old 12-21-2012, 10:41 AM
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Re: If Djokovic stays the No. 1 until October, he will overtake Nadal...

Sampras also predicted Federer to win 10 Wimbledons.
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post #279 of 742 (permalink) Old 12-21-2012, 10:59 AM
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Re: If Djokovic stays the No. 1 until October, he will overtake Nadal...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nick the greek View Post
If No1e stays #1 5 more years he'll overtake Uglyrer.
surely not 5 years

jesus federer was no.1 for ever.

the only way Djokovic does not overtake dull by 2014 is if he gets injured or Murray/dull rips it up next year.

On Murray

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Originally Posted by Jamvol View Post
He probably just hangs about in 2nd place protecting himself with 3 bananas whilst waiting for the person in the lead to get blue shelled.
Nadal 2015

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Originally Posted by Roadmap View Post
Nadull was not injured. The reason he was moving like shit near the end of the third set is because of the depression of knowing your opponent is superior in all departments.

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post #280 of 742 (permalink) Old 12-21-2012, 11:56 AM
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Re: If Djokovic stays the No. 1 until October, he will overtake Nadal...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
You did not answer my question:

You quoted post where I stated that "best evidence of expertise is proof that a person is widely recognized as a expert". Now, explain why that statement means that I said you "need to be publicitly recognized expert to have expertise on a subject"?
Your statement doesn't mean that. And, I never claimed that you said that you "need to be publicly recognized expert to have expertise on a subject".

This is what I said:

"The massive hole in your argument is that you don't need to be a publicly recognized expert to have expertise on a subject."

If you were questioning the expertise of members of MTF to make a judgement on this issue, this would have been a massive hole in your argument. A hole in your argument, almost by definition is something you haven't considered, otherwise it would be part of your argument.

The later post was made before you clarified that you were not in fact making any positive claims about the expertise of MTF members.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
I did not say that.
This is what you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
1. Your opinion is irrelevant because you are not a tennis expert
2. Pete Sampras and Steve Flink said that Djokovic will probably reach double digits
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sport...nis/57339052/1
http://www.tennischannel.com/news/Ne...x?newsid=10327
3. Can you find tennis experts who said that Djokovic will not reach double digits?
Roy Emerson's opinion is not irrelevant, because as we've established, he may well have the expertise to make a judgement on this issue. Secondly, Roy Emerson does not need to find tennis experts who said Djokovic will not reach double digits, because that is no part of his argument.

Quote:
Well, as I said, I'm a non-expert so need proof that someone is an expert in regard to complex issues.
You may need that proof, but of the tens of thousands of people posting on this site only a small proportion (if any) will be widely recognized as tennis experts. The rest have no means of demonstrating their expertise to you because: "non-experts on tennis do not have knowledge to comprehend which argument is more sound in debate about a complex tennis issue".

It is unreasonable to ask someone to do something that is impossible. I think it is also very strange to go to a site, and expect a response that will be impossible for the majority of members to give. Maybe it would help if you asked nicely, rather than dismissing peoples' opinions as irrelevant.

Quote:
You finally made it clear. I do not think that Sampras is a expert tennis historian/statistician.
OK. Here is my next claim: In order to make accurate predictions about future tennis events you need to have a good understanding of past statistical trends, and the ability to take into account unknown variables. The best evidence of prediction ability is a successful track record of past predictions.

I'm asking this in order to narrow down the sort of tennis expert we are looking for.
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post #281 of 742 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 02:44 PM Thread Starter
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Re: If Djokovic stays the No. 1 until October, he will overtake Nadal...

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Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
Roy Emerson's opinion is not irrelevant, because as we've established, he may well have the expertise to make a judgement on this issue.
Considering that there is no proof Roy Emerson is a tennis expert and that probably most posters on MTF are not tennis experts, my opinion is that his opinion is irrelevant.

Quote:
Secondly Roy Emerson does not need to find tennis experts who said Djokovic will not reach double digits, because that is no part of his argument.
I asked this question because it is part of my argument.

Quote:
You may need that proof, but of the tens of thousands of people posting on this site only a small proportion (if any) will be widely recognized as tennis experts. The rest have no means of demonstrating their expertise to you because: "non-experts on tennis do not have knowledge to comprehend which argument is more sound in debate about a complex tennis issue".

It is unreasonable to ask someone to do something that is impossible. I think it is also very strange to go to a site, and expect a response that will be impossible for the majority of members to give. Maybe it would help if you asked nicely, rather than dismissing peoples' opinions as irrelevant.
It's possible that some posters can prove that they are widely recognized as tennis experts.

Quote:
In order to make accurate predictions about future tennis events you need to have a good understanding of past statistical trends, and the ability to take into account unknown variables. The best evidence of prediction ability is a successful track record of past predictions.
I agree.

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Originally Posted by Litotes View Post
If you choose to follow an "expert" of your own choice blindly
How did you come to the conclusion that I blindly follow Sampras?

Quote:
instead of listening to arguments
I'm a non-expert on tennis and non-experts on tennis can not comprehend which argument is more sound on a complex tennis issue.

Last edited by Alaricus; 12-27-2012 at 03:42 PM.
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post #282 of 742 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 04:44 PM
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Re: If Djokovic stays the No. 1 until October, he will overtake Nadal...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
Considering that there is no proof Roy Emerson is a tennis expert and that probably most posters on MTF are not tennis experts, my opinion is that his opinion is irrelevant.



I asked this question because it is part of my argument.



It's possible that some posters can prove that they are widely recognized as tennis experts.



I agree.



How did you come to the conclusion that I blindly follow Sampras?



I'm a non-expert on tennis and non-experts on tennis can not comprehend which argument is more sound on a complex tennis issue.
Why not?
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post #283 of 742 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 05:52 PM
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Re: If Djokovic stays the No. 1 until October, he will overtake Nadal...

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Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
Considering that there is no proof Roy Emerson is a tennis expert and that probably most posters on MTF are not tennis experts, my opinion is that his opinion is irrelevant.
Irrelevant to you, only, not irrelevant tout court. Imagine a guy coming into a discussion about which he knows nothing. "Any proven experts here", he asks. "No", they reply. He lets them continue on. That's the extent of your contribution to the debate.

Imagine you're one of the people debating. Suddenly the guy says, "Hey you! Your opinion is irrelevant!". How do you think you would take that? You're having a discussion about something which, lets say you have expertise in, and someone else (who has no expertise) tells your opinion doesn't matter. He doesn't say, "hey this doesn't matter to me", because then the 'argument' would end right there.

That's you in this debate. This 'debate' has gone on for so long because nobody realized you have no positive arguments (about the topic) to make! You're not participating in anything, you're standing on the sidelines asking people to show their expert credentials, because you believe you're incapable of evaluating arguments on their own merit.

Quote:
I asked this question because it is part of my argument.
What argument? As you said yourself, you're not making any "positive claim[s]". And as such, no one has to prove their expertise to you. It is rude to ask for such proof as a matter of entitlement.

Quote:
It's possible that some posters can prove that they are widely recognized as tennis experts.
I'll repeat what I said again:

"I think it is also very strange to go to a site, and expect a response that will be impossible for the majority of members to give. Maybe it would help if you asked nicely, rather than dismissing peoples' opinions as irrelevant."

If you want expert opinions, an anonymous site like this is the last place to go.

Quote:
I agree.
Good.

This is my revised argument.

Pete Sampras has high level practical understanding of tennis. A "tennis predictor" is someone who has a good understanding of past statistical trends, and the ability to take into account unknown variables. The best evidence of this ability is a successful track record of past predictions. From the fact that Pete Sampras has a high level practical understanding of tennis it does not follow that he is a tennis predictor.

Note: I am not saying Sampras is not a "tennis predictor"; I am saying we cannot infer this from his "high level practical understanding of tennis".
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post #284 of 742 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 06:52 PM
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Re: If Djokovic stays the No. 1 until October, he will overtake Nadal...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5555 View Post
How did you come to the conclusion that I blindly follow Sampras?


I'm a non-expert on tennis and non-experts on tennis can not comprehend which argument is more sound on a complex tennis issue.
You are giving the impression of being so not open for other interpretations as to try to invalidate any input into the debate besides what your choice of expert is saying. That's blind faith on your part. One can only hope you're not serious about this.

You are a non-expert with very strong views on things you're not an expert on.....
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post #285 of 742 (permalink) Old 01-04-2013, 02:32 PM Thread Starter
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Re: If Djokovic stays the No. 1 until October, he will overtake Nadal...

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Originally Posted by Han Solo View Post
Why not?
Because non-experts do not have enough knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
not irrelevant tout court.
I did not say that.

Quote:
Imagine a guy coming into a discussion about which he knows nothing. "Any proven experts here", he asks. "No", they reply. He lets them continue on. That's the extent of your contribution to the debate.

Imagine you're one of the people debating. Suddenly the guy says, "Hey you! Your opinion is irrelevant!". How do you think you would take that? You're having a discussion about something which, lets say you have expertise in, and someone else (who has no expertise) tells your opinion doesn't matter. He doesn't say, "hey this doesn't matter to me", because then the 'argument' would end right there.

That's you in this debate. This 'debate' has gone on for so long because nobody realized you have no positive arguments (about the topic) to make! You're not participating in anything, you're standing on the sidelines asking people to show their expert credentials, because you believe you're incapable of evaluating arguments on their own merit.
Maybe I was not polite, but you have not shown that any of my arguments were wrong.

Quote:
What argument? As you said yourself, you're not making any "positive claim[s]". And as such, no one has to prove their expertise to you. It is rude to ask for such proof as a matter of entitlement.
How many times I have to repeat that I need to see opinions from proven experts on complex issues considering that I'm a non-expert.

Quote:
I'll repeat what I said again:

"I think it is also very strange to go to a site, and expect a response that will be impossible for the majority of members to give. Maybe it would help if you asked nicely, rather than dismissing peoples' opinions as irrelevant."

If you want expert opinions, an anonymous site like this is the last place to go.
Maybe it's strange, but as I said above, you have not demonstrated that any of my arguments were incorrect.

Quote:
Good.

This is my revised argument.

Pete Sampras has high level practical understanding of tennis. A "tennis predictor" is someone who has a good understanding of past statistical trends, and the ability to take into account unknown variables. The best evidence of this ability is a successful track record of past predictions. From the fact that Pete Sampras has a high level practical understanding of tennis it does not follow that he is a tennis predictor.
I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Litotes View Post
You are giving the impression of being so not open for other interpretations as to try to invalidate any input into the debate besides what your choice of expert is saying. That's blind faith on your part. One can only hope you're not serious about this.
Your argument is not based on fact but on your opinion that I am "giving impression...". Can you provide fact-based argument?

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You are a non-expert with very strong views on things you're not an expert on.....
What strong views? Give examples.
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