Why does Djokovic need to be on the verge of losing to play his best ? - Page 2 - MensTennisForums.com

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post #16 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-15-2012, 01:37 PM
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Re: Why does Djokovic need to be on the verge of losing to play his best ?

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Originally Posted by lovevolleyer View Post
He likes to put his fans like Nole Fan on the edge of their seats.
lol, as much as I love Nole it's like give me a heart attack NOW. I can't take it any more
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post #17 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-15-2012, 01:55 PM
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Re: Why does Djokovic need to be on the verge of losing to play his best ?

Probably it's some kind of rhythm/get in the groove thing. In the WTF final he didn't win a point until half of the set was gone. Ok, Fed was really awesome, but not winning a single point is somewhat unusual. However, as the match and rallies were getting longer, he was better and better.

It's a nightmare for a fan though, often I'd turn off the video and just check live scores time to time.

“There’s so many athletes, tennis players around the world,” he continued, trying to put his life into some kind of perspective, “they want to be the best in what they do. They want to succeed. Many of them, they don’t succeed in the end. I’m fortunate to have this opportunity and succeed.”
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post #18 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-15-2012, 03:20 PM
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Re: Why does Djokovic need to be on the verge of losing to play his best ?

Nole fans before a match:



When he's a BP/SP/MP down:



When he saves them and goes on the offensive:



And when he finally gets the match finished:

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post #19 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-15-2012, 03:54 PM
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Re: Why does Djokovic need to be on the verge of losing to play his best ?

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Nole fans before a match:



When he's a BP/SP/MP down:



When he saves them and goes on the offensive:



And when he finally gets the match finished:

a good one.

Nole needs much better serve me thinks in critical moments.

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post #20 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-15-2012, 03:58 PM
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Re: Why does Djokovic need to be on the verge of losing to play his best ?

Well sometimes he's on the verge of losing... and he loses.

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post #21 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-15-2012, 04:02 PM
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Re: Why does Djokovic need to be on the verge of losing to play his best ?

Being a fan of him certainly isn't healthy.

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post #22 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-15-2012, 06:03 PM
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Re: Why does Djokovic need to be on the verge of losing to play his best ?



Djokocoaster is spot frequently in match threads in Nole's forum

We got a bit bored in the first 6 months in 2011
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post #23 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-15-2012, 06:37 PM
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Re: Why does Djokovic need to be on the verge of losing to play his best ?

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Well sometimes he's on the verge of losing... and he loses.
No shit

“There’s so many athletes, tennis players around the world,” he continued, trying to put his life into some kind of perspective, “they want to be the best in what they do. They want to succeed. Many of them, they don’t succeed in the end. I’m fortunate to have this opportunity and succeed.”
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post #24 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-15-2012, 06:40 PM
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Re: Why does Djokovic need to be on the verge of losing to play his best ?

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No shit
I knew it would take one clever poster like you to be a smartass about my post, which was to take very seriously obviously

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post #25 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-15-2012, 06:52 PM
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Re: Why does Djokovic need to be on the verge of losing to play his best ?

Just wants to give his opponents false hope really. Just makes his wins look more epic too really.
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post #26 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-16-2012, 08:20 AM
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Re: Why does Djokovic need to be on the verge of losing to play his best ?

He's a slow starter, obviously. It makes sense that an offensive player like Federer comes out firing on all cylinders in the first few games while a player like Djokovic usually needs the first few games to get into the groove. A more interesting comparison would be that between Djokovic and Murray. Murray hasn't traditionally been a slow-starter like Djokovic or a full-throttle player like Federer as much as a rollercoasting kind of player who dips and peaks several times during a match. Djokovic OTOH unlike Murray doesn't usually zone out once he shakes off the intial rustiness.

It's interesting to note that while Murray is still very much a rollercoasting player, he's often had Federer-like starts this year, coming out firing on all cylinders in the first few games. That's basically how he beat Djokovic a few time this year. It's obviously a new attitude that he's learnt and adapted to with Lendl, and these great starts have helped him cancel out some of the later inevitable dips during a match. I guess that if someone like Murray can learn to be aggressive from the get-go and create a buffer of a few games at the start of a match, then it shouldn't be impossible for Djokovic to learn to do the same. It would definitely have helped him in some crucial moments of his career...

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His most ridiculous comeback was vs Fed at the USO. Aside from that FH winner, the most amazing thing was that Fed hardly won a single point from then on. Considering he was broken to love at *3-4 it was an amazing turnaround.
He's had a few close calls these last couple of years, but the more I think about it the more I feel that out of all those close calls this was the one match that he really should have lost, it was a bit like cheating death. Federer was riding a wave of confidence and great play throughout the 5th set all the way up to 5-3 40-15 and those two match points, while Novak was just holding it together even in the games that he won (he had to hit a few spectacular shots just to get himself out of trouble earlier at 1-2). That 5th set must be one of the more memorable ones in USO history...
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post #27 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-16-2012, 09:08 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Why does Djokovic need to be on the verge of losing to play his best ?

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Originally Posted by incognito View Post
He's a slow starter, obviously. It makes sense that an offensive player like Federer comes out firing on all cylinders in the first few games while a player like Djokovic usually needs the first few games to get into the groove.
yes it's also right, but it's only a part of the "Djoko-coaster" imo.

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A more interesting comparison would be that between Djokovic and Murray. Murray hasn't traditionally been a slow-starter like Djokovic or a full-throttle player like Federer as much as a rollercoasting kind of player who dips and peaks several times during a match. Djokovic OTOH unlike Murray doesn't usually zone out once he shakes off the intial rustiness.
It's not the way I see it : I don't see Murray as much a roller-coaster because Djokovic has this kind of schemes inside one set and even inside one game, for Murray traditionally it's been rather for a whole set, sometimes a whole match, that he goes out of his match. And it looks more that it's about disappointment or loss of confidence whereas for Djokovic it looks like a lack of adrenaline.

And I think that the scheme "shaking off the initial rustiness then going out again" has been traditionally more a Djokovic's scheme than a Murray's scheme.

Although in last years yes, Djokovic has been more like what you say than in the past, and Murray still looks less mature, yes.

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Originally Posted by incognito View Post
It's interesting to note that while Murray is still very much a rollercoasting player, he's often had Federer-like starts this year, coming out firing on all cylinders in the first few games. That's basically how he beat Djokovic a few time this year. It's obviously a new attitude that he's learnt and adapted to with Lendl, and these great starts have helped him cancel out some of the later inevitable dips during a match. I guess that if someone like Murray can learn to be aggressive from the get-go and create a buffer of a few games at the start of a match, then it shouldn't be impossible for Djokovic to learn to do the same. It would definitely have helped him in some crucial moments of his career...
yes you're right : it's possible to do that, and I think Djokovic did that from time to time as well. But it would surely help him to do that in some crucial matches, yes.

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Last edited by duong; 11-16-2012 at 09:16 AM.
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post #28 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-16-2012, 04:18 PM
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Re: Why does Djokovic need to be on the verge of losing to play his best ?

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I've always been interested / liked / admired Djokovic's "roller-coaster" method.

It struck me first in his match against Baghdatis in Wimbledon 2007.

And since then, I've been used to this kind of "method" / match and games scenario/rhythm.

First you can see it during a serving game : he's been one of the players who wins the highest number of serving games at 40-30 or something. This is visible in the fact that comparing to other top-players, he has always been better in stats for the % of games won than for the % of points won ; he's also been regularly the best at saving breakpoints comparing to the number of points he wins on serve.

He can play a few loose errors-points in the beginning of the game, but then when he's in danger, he seems to focus again deeply inside him and then gets very solid.

This is typically the kind of things that struck me in his match against Baghdatis in Wimbledon 2007 ... and even more surprising was the number of times when he had looked upset ... but then immediately, right for next point, he could be and look extremely focused (I guess he does that concentration work partly during his bounces on serve).

In more recent years, a new consequence of that has appeared : the number of matches he has won after facing match-points against him or being in huge danger : against Fed, Tsonga, Murray, Seppi ...

Imo he was clearly the better player in his matches against Fed in the US Open 2010 and 2011 and the WTF 2012, it was no hazard that he won those matches : I mean his best level was superior to Fed's, and he mainly won when he "activated" that level.

However, another problem related with this method is that his slow starts, with lower level, may cost him a lot :
- against Nadal in the Australian and the French Open
- against Murray in the US Open
- against Fed in Cincy
- against Fed in the French Open 2011
- against Tsonga and Seppi in the French Open
etc ...

When you get way behind your opponent, it can become too hard to come back in the end, and your opponents can clinch the match with a few points which go their way even though they're lesser players.

If you're interested, Tignor also noted that trend several times on his blog.

Why does he do like that ? a matter of adrenaline ?
Even as a Djokovic's fan I have to admit that he didn't achieve as much as he should have this year due to his inabilities to win the set at 5-5, count how many sets in those matches that he lost this year with a 5-7 reverse, most notable was the us open final against Murray, he could have won it in straight sets or 4. Ok so he doesn't have the lethal serve of Fed, hence his tiebreak records is not that good for a number one player in the world. I think he needs to learn when it's important to break serve ie at 4-4 or 5-5. There's no point of breaking your opponent 3 times in a set (against Querrey in Paris) and can't break him even once in the next 2 sets. He was also undone by the 7-5 scoreline against fed at 2011 FO semi, all 3 losses at Wimbledon this year etc. Also against Nadal on clay this year at Monte Carlo. All in all, he's not that strong minded, but finally justice prevailed when he beat Fed 7-6 7-5, the sorts of scoreline that was against him all year.p

Last edited by Orangeball; 11-16-2012 at 04:21 PM. Reason: Typo
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post #29 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-16-2012, 04:49 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Why does Djokovic need to be on the verge of losing to play his best ?

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Even as a Djokovic's fan I have to admit that he didn't achieve as much as he should have this year due to his inabilities to win the set at 5-5, count how many sets in those matches that he lost this year with a 5-7 reverse
in Fed-Djoko's 29 matches (yes more than Fed-Nadal's 28 matches now and they approach to the numbers of matches in the H2Hs between Becker and Edberg or Lendl and McEnroe ), there have been quite a lot of 7-6 and 7-5 (30 ones in 29 matches that's quite a lot in my eyes)

... and there have been more 7-5 scores than 7-6 !!

which means that when they go to 5-5 the probability of a break in next two games is high.


Part of it is Djokovic being a great returner rather than a great server imo which means that with him a lot of breaks can happen (it's also the case for Murray : as I've often said Djokovic and Murray are rather return-oriented, Fed and Nadal more serve-oriented, which means that their stats show that there will be more breaks in Djokovic's and Murray's matches),

part of it is that a lot of mental things happened in those moments.

So far these sets have been quite tied but some trends are interesting :

- 9-7 for Fed for scores with the score 7-5 but it used to be 9-3 for Fed !! Djokovic has won the last four 7-5 sets they played, and each time after having already come back from a break before and accelerating in his typical adrenalin accelerating style "I'm better than you, guy" which I described in first post(2nd set of the AO 2011, 5th set of the US Open 2011, 2nd set of the FO 2012, 2nd set of the WTF 2012) ;

- 7-7 in tiebreaks but Djokovic had won the first 3 ones in 2007 when Fed was at his best in tiebreaks but Djokovic started his carreer greatly in tiebreaks (he was the one who broke the 2 longest Fed's tiebreak winning streaks), since then it has been 7-4 for Fed in tiebreaks (7-3 before last WTF)

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Last edited by duong; 11-16-2012 at 05:12 PM.
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post #30 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-16-2012, 04:53 PM
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Re: Why does Djokovic need to be on the verge of losing to play his best ?

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in Fed-Djoko's 29 matches (yes more than Fed-Nadal's 28 matches now and they approach to the numbers of matches in the H2Hs between Becker and Edberg or Lendl and McEnroe ), there have been quite a lot of 7-6 and 7-5 (30 ones in 29 matches that's quite a lot in my eyes) ... and there have been more 7-5 scores than 7-6 !!

which means that when they went to 5-5 the probability of a break in next two games is high.

Part of it is Djokovic being a great returner rather than a great server imo (as I've often said Djokovic and Murray are rather return-oriented, Fed and Nadal more serve-oriented, which means that their stats show that there will be more breaks in Djokovic's and Murray's matches),
part of it is that a lot of mental things happened in those moments.

But so far these sets have been quite tied :
- 9-7 for Fed for scores with the score 7-5 (it was 9-6 before the WTF, yes)
- 7-7 in tiebreaks (Djokovic had won the first 3 ones in 2007, he was the one who broke the 2 longest Fed's tiebreak winning streaks, since then it's been 7-4 for Fed - 7-3 before the WTF)
Cam on for the facts Duong, what's about all Novak's losses this year alone?
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