"Points vulturing" and defensive players - MensTennisForums.com

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-20-2012, 03:37 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,947
                     
"Points vulturing" and defensive players

In this forum, "points vulturing" is associated with defensive players and especially with Monaco and Ferrer.

I typically read that pure bullshit :

Quote:
In tennis points vultures are often players who's game style is very defensive, so are unable to gain wins over higher ranked opponents and therefore try to play as many weaker players as possible to inflate their ranking.
This is pure bullshit concerning Ferrer, as he's got more wins against top-players than all of the other players outside of top-4 except Rodddick and Del Potro.

As far as Monaco is concerned :

- Monaco's worst optional result at the moment is 40 points, which is very low for players of the top-20.

- in recent years, Monaco actually played quite few events because he was often injured. How can you vulture points when you play few events ?

- Monaco qualified to two Masters 1000 semifinals, this is something which very very few players have done. Ok Monaco won Hamburg, then I guess Haas who was finalist also was a points vulture.

This "Points vulturing" notion and especially the association with defensive tennis has no reality of any kind, this is pure fan's imagination and I'm very angry with the fact that it has become like "common knowledge" on this website.

It might be possible to discuss the notion of "points vulturing" especially for players who take part in Asian or in a lesser extent south-American challengers with weaker fields, a typical player concerned being Lorenzi (or Stebe in 2011). Or worse for players who take part in futures in countries of Africa or Iran which have few futures.

But the association with defensive tennis (which I don't like) can only be made by people who never look at players' ranking breakdowns.

useless old guy
duong is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-20-2012, 03:40 PM
Registered User
 
pusher for life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 952
                     
Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

Ferrer = The Vulture
Monaco = The Vulture In Chief

Period.

Devotee for Life !!

1) I feel you 2) Walking in my shoes 3) Things you said 4) Halo 5) In your room
pusher for life is offline  
post #3 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-20-2012, 03:41 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,947
                     
Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

Ferrer against top-players comparing to Berdych against top-players (Berdych being presumably a player who, in a good day, can beat anyone, which would not be Ferrer's case):

Ferrer-Djoko 5-9 // Berdych-Djoko 1-9
Ferrer-Murray 5-6 // Berdych-Murray 4-3
Ferrer-Nadal 4-15 // Berdych-Nadal 3-11
Ferrer-Federer 0-13 // Berdych-Federer 5-11 : hurray for you but on clay, Ferrer met Fed in Madrid or Hamburg, on Fed's favorite clay, or a long long time ago when Ferrer was not emerging yet

Already, it's far from convincing for Berdych except his hurray-record against Fed, but look at the following carefully : you will see that most of the time, Ferrer has positive H2Hs against other best players while it's the opposite for Berdych :

Ferrer-Del Po 5-2 // Berdych-Del Po 2-4
Ferrer-Berdych 5-3 // Berdych-Ferrer 3-5
Ferrer-Tsonga 1-1 // Berdych-Tsonga 1-1
Ferrer-Söderling 4-10 // Berdych-Söderling 3-6

Ferrer-Roddick 7-4 // Berdych-Roddick 5-6
Ferrer-Davydenko 2-3 // Berdych-Davydenko 2-9
Ferrer-Nalbandian 8-5 // Berdych-Nalbandian 1-4
Ferrer-Ljubicic 6-1 // Berdych-Ljubicic 2-3
Ferrer-Haas 2-0 // Berdych-Haas 2-2
Ferrer-Gonzo 5-5 // Berdych-Gonzo 3-4
Ferrer-Blake 1-2 / Berdych-Blake 3-2
Ferrer-Youzhny 3-4 // Berdych-Youzhny 5-6
Ferrer-Robredo 5-2 // Berdych-Robredo 4-3

Ferrer-Gasquet 7-1 // Berdych-Gasquet 2-4
Ferrer-Monfils 0-3 // Berdych-Monfils 3-0 : hurray, you've got your case, Berdych owns Monfils while Monfils owns Ferrer !
Ferrer-Baghdatis 3-1 // Berdych-Baghdatis 3-2
Ferrer-Wawrinka 5-3 // Berdych-Wawrinka 4-5
Ferrer-Simon 4-1 // Berdych-Simon 2-4
Ferrer-Almagro 11-0 // Berdych-Almagro 7-3

Ferrer-Raonic 4-0 // Berdych-Raonic 0-1
Ferrer-Isner 4-1 // Berdych-Isner 2-2
Ferrer-Cilic 3-1 // Berdych-Cilic 4-1
Ferrer-Dolgopolov 4-1 // Berdych-Dolgopolov 2-0

useless old guy
duong is offline  
post #4 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-20-2012, 03:47 PM
Banned!
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 12,122
                     
Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

MArk Lenders posted a bullet proof demonstration to prove his thesis. search for it.
motorhead is offline  
post #5 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-20-2012, 03:51 PM
.
 
rocketassist's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 29,081
                     
Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

Ferrer and Monaco are different animals. Ferrer can beat decent players in slams, Monaco can't.

Monaco's top 10 ranking this year is a lot down to lack of depth. You look at all these players getting their best results close to or at 30. It's becoming a recurring theme.

unbiased analyst extraordinaire

Last edited by rocketassist; 03-27-2015 at 11:08 PM.
rocketassist is offline  
post #6 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-20-2012, 03:52 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,947
                     
Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

in the past, you had Golubev or Stakhovsky whose rankings depended on one result : are they defensive players ? no.

This year, Melzer's ranking depends a lot on his win in Memphis. Is he a defensive player ? no.

At the moment here are Tipsarevic's countable optional results :
- Stutgart win : 250 points
- World Team cup win : 250 points
- Moscow win : 250 points
- Kuala win : 250 points
- Gstaad final : 150 points
- Chennai final : 150 points

Is he a defensive player ? no.

In 2010, Youzhny had 4 ATP500 finals in his rankings (Tokyo-Valencia-Rotterdam-Dubai) and a good draw in the US Open. Is he a defensive player ? no.

A few weeks ago, Tsonga had 3 ATP250 wins in his ranking : Vienna-Metz-Doha, is he a defensive player ? no.

The same for Cilic or Fish in the past.

In the rankings, the number of optional results you can count is limited then the number of results you get has little importance except very far in the rankings.

What is important is your highest results. You can get them in different tournament categories, and sometimes you can have good draws or what, but what's the relationshipo with a defensive style ? NO CONNECTION AT ALL.

useless old guy
duong is offline  
post #7 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-20-2012, 03:52 PM
Registered User
 
Sophitia36's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Age: 31
Posts: 2,119
                     
Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

You could add (as I did in that locked thread) that this year, in Grand Slams (which do qualify as "big" events, I guess) Ferrer only lost against Djokovic, Nadal and Murray. All of whom are ranked higher and have won one Slam this year.

I admire your work but I don't think anyone is really interested in grounding their opinions in fact over here, sadly
Sophitia36 is offline  
post #8 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-20-2012, 03:53 PM
Registered User
 
End da Game's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,523
                     
Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

vultures and pushers are the cancer of tennis, both must be exterminated to allow for real talents like tomic, harrison and roanic to come through and take their rightful place in the top 10 rankings
End da Game is offline  
post #9 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-20-2012, 03:54 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,947
                     
Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
Ferrer can beat big players in slams, Monaco can't.
you may think that if you want, but what's the connection with the notion of ranking points ?

There's no connection at all !!

If by "big players" people mean "top-4" as often in this forum, nobody can do that except once in a year and it has very little impact in the rankings.

If you mean they can beat worse than top-4 players, many players can beat them. Monaco actually has a positive H2H against Ferrer for instance.

useless old guy
duong is offline  
post #10 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-20-2012, 03:56 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,947
                     
Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophitia36 View Post
I admire your work but I don't think anyone is really interested in grounding their opinions in fact over here, sadly
I know, but the bombarding of this bullshit-notion has gone too far imo, one thread to attack it will not hurt.

Besides, I think some people do have prejudice but still would accept the truth, I think.

useless old guy
duong is offline  
post #11 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-20-2012, 03:57 PM
Rankings Master
 
Slasher1985's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Age: 30
Posts: 13,006
                     
Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

Pardon me, but shouldn't vulturing be referring to players constantly entering tournaments with weak fields ? If that's the case, I don't think positive or negative H2H with higher ranked players have anything to do with vulturing, but rather the number of said matches should dictate that. A player with a high match count against top players, even 0-25, shouldn't be a vulture. That's a sign of choosing big tournaments and failing miserably against high ranked players each time.
Slasher1985 is offline  
post #12 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-20-2012, 03:57 PM
Banned!
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 12,122
                     
Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

Quote:
Originally Posted by End da Game View Post
vultures and pushers are the cancer of tennis, both must be exterminated to allow for real talents like tomic, harrison and roanic to come through and take their rightful place in the top 10 rankings
harrison is the king of pushers
motorhead is offline  
post #13 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-20-2012, 03:58 PM
Banned!
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 12,122
                     
Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
Pardon me, but shouldn't vulturing be referring to players constantly entering tournaments with weak fields ? If that's the case, I don't think positive or negative H2H with higher ranked players have anything to do with vulturing, but rather the number of said matches should dictate that. A player with a high match count against top players, even 0-25, shouldn't be a vulture. That's a sign of choosing big tournaments and failing miserably against high ranked players each time.
this.

/thread.
motorhead is offline  
post #14 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-20-2012, 03:59 PM
.
 
rocketassist's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 29,081
                     
Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

Quote:
Originally Posted by duong View Post
you may think that if you want, but what's the connection with the notion of ranking points ?

There's no connection at all !!

If by "big players" people mean "top-4" as often in this forum, nobody can do that except once in a year and it has very little impact in the rankings.

If you mean they can beat worse than top-4 players, many players can beat them. Monaco actually has a positive H2H against Ferrer for instance.
Ferrer has a few top 4 and indeed top 10 wins in slams.

Monaco has profitted from a weak field below top 8 or so. A few years ago when you'd expect him to be at his peak age he was nowhere near the top 10.

unbiased analyst extraordinaire
rocketassist is offline  
post #15 of 199 (permalink) Old 09-20-2012, 04:00 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,947
                     
Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
Pardon me, but shouldn't vulturing be referring to players constantly entering tournaments with weak fields ? If that's the case, I don't think positive or negative H2H with higher ranked players have anything to do with vulturing, but rather the number of said matches should dictate that. A player with a high match count against top players, even 0-25, shouldn't be a vulture. That's a sign of choosing big tournaments and failing miserably against high ranked players each time.

You're perfectly right but with that, I attack one of the sentences of this dogma :

Quote:
Points vultures exist at all levels of tennis, although are also prominent in other sports such as badminton. In tennis points vulture's are often players who's game style is very defensive, so are unable to gain wins over higher ranked opponents and therefore try to play as many weaker players as possible to inflate their ranking.
This dogma not being rational at all, I agree with you. There's no demonstration of any kind, just a dogma.

useless old guy

Last edited by duong; 09-20-2012 at 04:12 PM.
duong is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the MensTennisForums.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome