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post #1 of 83 (permalink) Old 08-27-2012, 04:19 PM Thread Starter
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Big 4 Record Against Each Other - Now & Future

Not a big revelation but hearing some commentary about how Nadal was the worst opponent for the rest of the big 4 made me think of their respective records against each other.

Nadal: Winning record against all 3 of the others.
Federer: Winning record against 1 (Novak). Losing record against 2.
Djokovic: Winning record against 1 (Murray). Losing record against 2.
Murray: Winning record against 1 (Federer). Losing record against 2.

Somehow I hadn't ever thought of the Federer-Djokovic-Murray triangle in that way... Fed over Novak; Novak over Murray; Murray over Fed. Obviously simplistic and not sign of any dominance necessarily (Novak, Murray haven't played that much relative to the others; Fed, Murray is very close etc.). But wondering what people think will be the trend at the end of their careers?

My prediction:

Nadal - Winning record against all. The closest threat is Djokovic - Nadal's 5 ahead right now at 19-14. To overhaul that Novak will have to meet him in more HC SFs and Fs. Not sure Nadal will be making as many towards the end of his career and will probably get some clay wins to overhaul it anyway. Too far ahead of Federer and Murray.
Federer - Losing record against all 3. Controversial perhaps but already he's behind Murray and Nadal. He's won against Novak recently but do think Novak will overhaul it eventually as they're most likely to meet on hard and Fed's level will go down more than Novak's will. Not a given though. At best I think it'll be a winning record against Nole only.
Djokovic - Winning record against Federer - losing against the other 2. See Murray overhauling him on HCs and him catching up on Fed.
Murray - Winning record against Novak and Fed. Losing record against Nadal.

Will be interesting to see the overall stats of the Top 4 against each other and their domination of the field too once it's all done. After all, what was the last tournament that at least 1 of them entered and it was won by someone outside the quartet?
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post #2 of 83 (permalink) Old 08-27-2012, 04:22 PM
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Re: Big 4 Record Against Each Other - Now & Future

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Will be interesting to see the overall stats of the Top 4 against each other and their domination of the field too once it's all done. After all, what was the last tournament that at least 1 of them entered and it was won by someone outside the quartet?
Umm.... there's plenty? Halle 2012 is the latest I think. Do you follow the smaller tournaments at all ?

After Nadal beat Monfils at Doha, before AO 2014
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lol, who will beat him? Wawrinka? Berdych? Gulbis? Rosol? Federer?

Only Del Potro can take him out before the semis, and he won't. Nadal is winning the AO, bet your house on it.
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post #3 of 83 (permalink) Old 08-27-2012, 04:22 PM
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Re: Big 4 Record Against Each Other - Now & Future

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After all, what was the last tournament that at least 1 of them entered and it was won by someone outside the quartet?

Queens 2012. Murray was in the draw, Cilic won the tournament. Halle 2012, Federer and Nadal in the draw, Haas won the tournament.

This is just what we needed: another thread glorifying Murray
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post #4 of 83 (permalink) Old 08-27-2012, 04:22 PM
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Re: Big 4 Record Against Each Other - Now & Future

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Umm.... there's plenty? Halle 2012 is the latest I think. Do you follow the smaller tournaments at all ?


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post #5 of 83 (permalink) Old 08-27-2012, 04:23 PM
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Re: Big 4 Record Against Each Other - Now & Future

Last GS: USO 2009 (Del Potro)
Last TMS: Probably Paris 2010 (Söderling)

After Nadal beat Monfils at Doha, before AO 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by GSMnadal View Post
lol, who will beat him? Wawrinka? Berdych? Gulbis? Rosol? Federer?

Only Del Potro can take him out before the semis, and he won't. Nadal is winning the AO, bet your house on it.
Somewhere out there, there is a homeless person who once took betting advice from GSMnadal
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post #6 of 83 (permalink) Old 08-27-2012, 04:27 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Big 4 Record Against Each Other - Now & Future

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Umm.... there's plenty? Halle 2012 is the latest I think. Do you follow the smaller tournaments at all ?
Good point. My mistake. Had blocked out the terrible grass court season.

What was the last one pre-grass court season though? Quite a while back I think. Key point is about the top 4 against each other anyway.
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post #7 of 83 (permalink) Old 08-27-2012, 04:35 PM
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Re: Big 4 Record Against Each Other - Now & Future

.

old Davydenko better then heyday nadal.

Rosol better then nadal

.

Nadal "Sampras, Ivanisevic match. or one between those kind of players, is not enjoyable. It's not really tennis. it is a few swings of the racquet. For me in the past it was just serve. serve". arrogance.

clay excluded. successive win 0.  If grass and a hard are fast. Like Sampras era. Nadal is able to win only with clay. power of defense and muscles. boring ugly. All the surface is slow now.

fake time-out. cheat. gamesmanship. too noisy annoying always. excuse. boycotts threatened. always dissatisfaction cry complaints. dissatisfaction to schedule. selfish two-year ranking. bump to player. ugly protest. always exaggerated appeal of self condition. etc. overrated by fanatic arrogant blind fan
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post #8 of 83 (permalink) Old 08-27-2012, 04:36 PM
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Re: Big 4 Record Against Each Other - Now & Future

tell me.

nadal has NEVER won except clay successively why?

.

Nadal "Sampras, Ivanisevic match. or one between those kind of players, is not enjoyable. It's not really tennis. it is a few swings of the racquet. For me in the past it was just serve. serve". arrogance.

clay excluded. successive win 0.  If grass and a hard are fast. Like Sampras era. Nadal is able to win only with clay. power of defense and muscles. boring ugly. All the surface is slow now.

fake time-out. cheat. gamesmanship. too noisy annoying always. excuse. boycotts threatened. always dissatisfaction cry complaints. dissatisfaction to schedule. selfish two-year ranking. bump to player. ugly protest. always exaggerated appeal of self condition. etc. overrated by fanatic arrogant blind fan
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post #9 of 83 (permalink) Old 08-27-2012, 04:43 PM
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Re: Big 4 Record Against Each Other - Now & Future

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Good point. My mistake. Had blocked out the terrible grass court season.

What was the last one pre-grass court season though? Quite a while back I think. Key point is about the top 4 against each other anyway.
Doha 2012 at least, both Federer and Nadal played there

After Nadal beat Monfils at Doha, before AO 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by GSMnadal View Post
lol, who will beat him? Wawrinka? Berdych? Gulbis? Rosol? Federer?

Only Del Potro can take him out before the semis, and he won't. Nadal is winning the AO, bet your house on it.
Somewhere out there, there is a homeless person who once took betting advice from GSMnadal
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post #10 of 83 (permalink) Old 08-27-2012, 04:53 PM
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Re: Big 4 Record Against Each Other - Now & Future

Head-to-heads are pretty irrelevant unless you're trying to determine who is the favourite on a particular surface...

A better question to ask about the Top 4 would be, "How many times has Player X won a slam while Players Q, Y, and Z were in the draw?" or "How many times has Player X won a slam after defeating one or more of Players Q, Y, and Z?" Those are the stats I'd be interested in.
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post #11 of 83 (permalink) Old 08-27-2012, 05:07 PM
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Re: Big 4 Record Against Each Other - Now & Future

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Head-to-heads are pretty irrelevant unless you're trying to determine who is the favourite on a particular surface...

A better question to ask about the Top 4 would be, "How many times has Player X won a slam while Players Q, Y, and Z were in the draw?" or "How many times has Player X won a slam after defeating one or more of Players Q, Y, and Z?" Those are the stats I'd be interested in.
how is it irrelevant? you could say it's irrelevant when comparing two players careers overall BUT if you beat all of your top/main rivals during your career commandingly then obviously it has some weight

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post #12 of 83 (permalink) Old 08-27-2012, 05:11 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Big 4 Record Against Each Other - Now & Future

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Originally Posted by ServeVolley View Post
Head-to-heads are pretty irrelevant unless you're trying to determine who is the favourite on a particular surface...

A better question to ask about the Top 4 would be, "How many times has Player X won a slam while Players Q, Y, and Z were in the draw?" or "How many times has Player X won a slam after defeating one or more of Players Q, Y, and Z?" Those are the stats I'd be interested in.
Why is it irrelevant? I'm not looking at it as an indicator of who's favoured in the match up every time. I'm looking at it as an overall snapshot of their encounters and a general measure of their performances against each other. For me slams aren't the only important tournaments -SFs and Fs of Masters series add to the rivalries too. Sometimes even 250s - the Nadal/Djokovic Queens 2008 final is one of their best matches.

To me it's interesting to note how their H2Hs will evolve and if in the end we will end up with a square perhaps i.e., Djokovic over Nadal, Nadal over Fed, Fed over Murray, Murray over Djokovic or something to that effect, or whether Nadal will maintain his lead. [I'm not discounting that clay helps Nadal's lead, though he's had enough big slam wins over the other 3 on Hardcourts and Grass Courts for it not to matter too much.]
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post #13 of 83 (permalink) Old 08-27-2012, 05:26 PM
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Re: Big 4 Record Against Each Other - Now & Future

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Why is it irrelevant? I'm not looking at it as an indicator of who's favoured in the match up every time. I'm looking at it as an overall snapshot of their encounters and a general measure of their performances against each other. For me slams aren't the only important tournaments -SFs and Fs of Masters series add to the rivalries too. Sometimes even 250s - the Nadal/Djokovic Queens 2008 final is one of their best matches.

To me it's interesting to note how their H2Hs will evolve and if in the end we will end up with a square perhaps i.e., Djokovic over Nadal, Nadal over Fed, Fed over Murray, Murray over Djokovic or something to that effect, or whether Nadal will maintain his lead. [I'm not discounting that clay helps Nadal's lead, though he's had enough big slam wins over the other 3 on Hardcourts and Grass Courts for it not to matter too much.]
You must also note that the matchups change depending on the surface... For example Fed/Nole is an even matchup with Nole having the advantage on slow HCs, possibly on clay, and Fed on fast hardcourts and grass. So a lot depends on the surface where the players meet.

After Nadal beat Monfils at Doha, before AO 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by GSMnadal View Post
lol, who will beat him? Wawrinka? Berdych? Gulbis? Rosol? Federer?

Only Del Potro can take him out before the semis, and he won't. Nadal is winning the AO, bet your house on it.
Somewhere out there, there is a homeless person who once took betting advice from GSMnadal
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post #14 of 83 (permalink) Old 08-27-2012, 05:28 PM
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Re: Big 4 Record Against Each Other - Now & Future

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Queens 2012. Murray was in the draw, Cilic won the tournament. Halle 2012, Federer and Nadal in the draw, Haas won the tournament.

This is just what we needed: another thread glorifying Murray
Problem?

He deserves to be glorified, you are just upset that Murray, despite not yet winning a slam, still has a better career than Potro.

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post #15 of 83 (permalink) Old 08-27-2012, 08:34 PM
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Re: Big 4 Record Against Each Other - Now & Future

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Originally Posted by Ash86 View Post
Not a big revelation but hearing some commentary about how Nadal was the worst opponent for the rest of the big 4 made me think of their respective records against each other.

Nadal: Winning record against all 3 of the others.
Federer: Winning record against 1 (Novak). Losing record against 2.
Djokovic: Winning record against 1 (Murray). Losing record against 2.
Murray: Winning record against 1 (Federer). Losing record against 2.

Somehow I hadn't ever thought of the Federer-Djokovic-Murray triangle in that way... Fed over Novak; Novak over Murray; Murray over Fed. Obviously simplistic and not sign of any dominance necessarily (Novak, Murray haven't played that much relative to the others; Fed, Murray is very close etc.). But wondering what people think will be the trend at the end of their careers?

My prediction:

Nadal - Winning record against all. The closest threat is Djokovic - Nadal's 5 ahead right now at 19-14. To overhaul that Novak will have to meet him in more HC SFs and Fs. Not sure Nadal will be making as many towards the end of his career and will probably get some clay wins to overhaul it anyway. Too far ahead of Federer and Murray.
Federer - Losing record against all 3. Controversial perhaps but already he's behind Murray and Nadal. He's won against Novak recently but do think Novak will overhaul it eventually as they're most likely to meet on hard and Fed's level will go down more than Novak's will. Not a given though. At best I think it'll be a winning record against Nole only.
Djokovic - Winning record against Federer - losing against the other 2. See Murray overhauling him on HCs and him catching up on Fed.
Murray - Winning record against Novak and Fed. Losing record against Nadal.

Will be interesting to see the overall stats of the Top 4 against each other and their domination of the field too once it's all done. After all, what was the last tournament that at least 1 of them entered and it was won by someone outside the quartet?
Murray may have a positive record against Fed but if you look at the number of times he has played Fed comparing to Nole, then you cannot conclude Murray > Fed and Fed > Djokovic.
If Murray had played Fed more often I'm sure he would have a similar record to Novak.

My prediction:
Nadal will have a winning record against Fed, Murray and probably Djok.
Djok will have a winning record against Fed and Murray, probably Nadal.
Murray won't have a winning record against anyone.
Federer will have a winning record against Murray, probably Djok.



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