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post #796 of 1052 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 10:04 AM
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Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

During the whole year, Djokovic got a number of ATP points quite near to what he got in 2011 (12920 to 13630 with the current ranking system, 7095 to 7135 with the ancient ranking system) and higher to what Nadal got in 2008 and 2010 ... rather similar to what Federer got in 2007 (7180 in the old ranking system), and only really surpassed by the 8370 points Fed got in 2006. In 2004 and 2005 Fed had a little bit less points (6725 in 2005) but he missed Masters 1000 tournaments, he missed 4 ones in 2005 because of injury especially (yes I know many people think that Fed has never been injured ).

Djokovic had less good results in slams and did not have the huge streak he had in the beginning of 2011 but he had never been as consistent during the whole year, he had no bad period at all this year, which is the first time it happened for him.

Federer got a number of ATP points similar to what he had in 2009, with less spectacular results in slams but better in Masters 1000 tournaments and ATP500 tournaments. Murray got a little bit more points than in previous years, thanks to his US Open win especially.

Here's, for a comparison, the number of ATP points players got during the whole calendar year with the ranking system which prevailed during 2000 to 2008 (ranked according to their current rankings) :

Code:
Djokovic	7 095
Federer	5 780
Murray	4 700
Nadal	3 725
Ferrer	3 680
Berdych	2 990
Del Potro	3 020
Tsonga	2 540
Tipsarevic	2 040
Gasquet	1 855
Almagro	1 830
Monaco	1 680
Raonic	1 670
Isner	1 590
Cilic	1 650
Simon	1 600
Wawrinka	1 425
Dolgopolov	1 265
Nishikori	1 320
As a comparison, in 2011 :

Code:
Djokovic	7 135
Nadal	5 495
Federer	4 935
Murray	4 390
Ferrer	3 120
Tsonga	2 925
Berdych	2 540
Fish	2 110
Tipsarevic	1 860
Almagro	1 615
Del Potro	1 580
Simon	1 555
Söderling	1 685
Roddick	1 405
Dolgopolov	1 400
Monfils	1 455
Wawrinka	1 375
Isner	1 445
Gasquet	1 380
As a comparison, in 2010 :

Code:
Nadal	6 695
Federer	5 430
Djokovic	3 895
Murray	3 440
Söderling	3 425
Berdych	2 515
Ferrer	2 485
Roddick	2 325
Verdasco	2 200
Youzhny	1 990
Melzer	1 980
Monfils	1 675
Tsonga	1 660
Cilic	1 620
Almagro	1 565
Fish	1 414
Ljubicic	1 320
Querrey	1 415
Isner	1 355
As a comparison, in 2009 :

Code:
Federer	5 765
Nadal	5 205
Djokovic	5 005
Murray	4 305
Del Potro	3 855
Davydenko	3 000
Roddick	2 860
Söderling	2 308
Verdasco	2 445
Tsonga	2 030
Gonzalez	2 035
Stepanek	1 755
Monfils	1 653
Cilic	1 785
Simon	1 765
As a comparison, in 2008 :

Code:
Nadal	6 675
Federer	5 305
Djokovic	5 295
Murray	3 720
Davydenko	2 715
Tsonga	2 050
Simon	1 980
Roddick	1 970
Del Potro	1 945
Blake 	1 775
Nalbandian	1 725
Ferrer	1 695
Wawrinka	1 510
Monfils	1 475
Gonzalez	1 420
Verdasco	1 415
Söderling	1 325
Almagro	1 270
Andreev	1 245
Berdych	1 215
As a comparison, in 2007 :

Code:
Federer	7 180
Nadal	5 735
Djokovic	4 470
Davydenko	2 825
Ferrer	2 750
Roddick	2 530
Gonzalez	2 005
Gasquet	1 930
Nalbandian	1 775
Robredo	1 765
Murray	1 755
Haas	1 720
Blake 	1 710
Berdych	1 685
Canas	1 653
Baghdatis	1 600
Moya	1 585
Ljubicic	1 580
Youzhny	1 570
Chela	1 425
As a comparison, in 2006 :

Code:
Federer	8 370
Nadal	4 470
Davydenko	2 825
Blake	2 530
Ljubicic	2 495
Roddick	2 415
Robredo	2 375
Nalbandian	2 295
Ancic	2 060
Gonzalez	2 015
Haas	1 890
Baghdatis	1 860
Berdych	1 705
Ferrer	1 475
Nieminen	1 460
Djokovic	1 380
Murray	1 370
Gasquet	1 365
Stepanek	1 340
Hewitt	1 315

As a comparison, in 2005 :

Code:
Federer	6 725
Nadal	4 765
Roddick	3 085
Hewitt	2 490
Davydenko	2 390
Nalbandian	2 370
Agassi	2 275
Coria	2 190
Ljubicic	2 180
Gaudio	2 050
Gonzalez	1 790
Puerta/Safin	1 730
T. Johansson	1 645
Ferrer	1 620
Ginepri	1 520
Gasquet	1 506
Ferrero	1 500
Hrbaty	1 490
Robredo	1 490
Stepanek	1 440
As a comparison, in 2004 :

Code:
Federer	6 335
Roddick	3 655
Hewitt	3 590
Safin	3 060
Moya	2 520
Henman	2 465
Coria	2 400
Agassi	2 100
Nalbandian	1 945
Gaudio	1 920
J. Johansson	1 595
Canas	1 595
Robredo	1 465
Hrbaty	1 380
Grosjean	1 370
Youzhny	1 340
Haas	1 330
Pavel	1 325
Massu	1 320
Spadea	1 285
As a comparison, in 2003 :

Code:
Roddick	4 535
Federer	4 375
Ferrero	4 205
Agassi	3 425
Coria	3 330
Schuettler	3 205
Moya	2 280
Nalbandian	2 060
Philippoussis	1 615
Grosjean	1 610
Srichaphan	1 595
Massu	1 559
Novak	1 510
El Aynaoui	1 480
Henman	1 480
Kuerten	1 470
Hewitt	1 450
Schalken	1 445
Verkerk	1 425
Fish	1 300

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Last edited by duong; 11-13-2012 at 10:25 AM.
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post #797 of 1052 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 10:07 AM
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Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by duong View Post
Djokovic's 6080 points are the best any player has done after Wimbledon (excluded) since at least 2007.
No wonder you were uncertain about 2007. Federer got what would with today's ranking system be 6090 points for tournaments + two DC wins.
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post #798 of 1052 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 10:17 AM
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Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Besides, looking at the stats in the "ATP Ricoh matchfacts", Djokovic also has quite near stats to what he performed in 2011 : 87% service games won (86% in 2011), 35% return games won (39% in 2011), especially if you focus on hardcourts : 89% service games won (85% in 2011), 37% return games won (41% in 2011).

Federer had one of his best serving years (only 2004 is similar), especially on second serve (61% points won on hardcourts, better than the previous best 2003 and 2005 with 60%), but came back to his return stats from 2008-2009, which had improved in 2010-2011 by working with Annacone. I think he focused more on tactical changes on his serve (especially second serve) for this year, the focus was more on return in the beginning of his work with Annacone.

Murray's Ricoh stats are not as good as you would think : his year is not statistically better than in 2011, and 2009 was clearly better for that. What's been interesting with Murray along the years is that he has tried to improve both his first serve % and his second serve : he seems to have indeed improved but the efficiency of his first serve has quite declined, and in the end he has not really improved his overall efficiency on serve. On return, he's not been as effective as in 2011 (31% return games won comparing to 36% in 2011, 32% to 37% on hardcourts).

Nadal's Ricoh stats were very good this year ... until he got injured.

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post #799 of 1052 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 10:19 AM
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Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Litotes View Post
No wonder you were uncertain about 2007. Federer got what would with today's ranking system be 6090 points for tournaments + two DC wins.
thanks the DC points would only count for 15 points at most

he would have had many more points in 2006 (won Madrid and Toronto especially)

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post #800 of 1052 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 10:38 AM
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Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by duong View Post
Besides, looking at the stats in the "ATP Ricoh matchfacts", Djokovic also has quite near stats to what he performed in 2011 : 87% service games won (86% in 2011), 35% return games won (39% in 2011), especially if you focus on hardcourts : 89% service games won (85% in 2011), 37% return games won (41% in 2011).

Federer had one of his best serving years (only 2004 is similar), especially on second serve (61% points won on hardcourts, better than the previous best 2003 and 2005 with 60%), but came back to his return stats from 2008-2009, which had improved in 2010-2011 by working with Annacone. I think he focused more on tactical changes on his serve (especially second serve) for this year, the focus was more on return in the beginning of his work with Annacone.

Murray's Ricoh stats are not as good as you would think : his year is not statistically better than in 2011, and 2009 was clearly better for that. What's been interesting with Murray along the years is that he has tried to improve both his first serve % and his second serve : he seems to have indeed improved but the efficiency of his first serve has quite declined, and in the end he has not really improved his overall efficiency on serve. On return, he's not been as effective as in 2011 (31% return games won comparing to 36% in 2011, 32% to 37% on hardcourts).

Nadal's Ricoh stats were very good this year ... until he got injured.
Djokovic was clearly better on points on HC also this year than 2011, wasn't he? His post-US Open 2011 campaign hurt his numbers.

Federer's 60% 2nd serves won (all surfaces) is in fact a new personal best for him. He got 59% in most of his glory years (2003, 2005-7). 60% is also the single highest figure ever achieved by anyone since Ricoh stats started in 1991. The record was set by Juan Carlos Ferrero (2003), tied twice by Nadal (2008+2010) and now by Federer.

Murray's stats not being better should not surprise anyone. After all, he didn't win more matches or tournaments this year than previous years, he just got his wins in better places.

Nadal's stats are of course helped by the fact that clay was a larger part of his season than usual. His stats tend to deteriorate post-Wimbledon.
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post #801 of 1052 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 10:53 AM
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Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Litotes View Post
Djokovic was clearly better on points on HC also this year than 2011, wasn't he? His post-US Open 2011 campaign hurt his numbers.
yes better because he got more points on grass and clay in 2011 (especially with his Wimbledon win : on clay he surprisingly had quite nearly the same number of points because he played Monte-Carlo and reached the FO final this year)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Litotes View Post
Federer's 60% 2nd serves won (all surfaces) is in fact a new personal best for him. He got 59% in most of his glory years (2003, 2005-7). 60% is also the single highest figure ever achieved by anyone since Ricoh stats started in 1991. The record was set by Juan Carlos Ferrero (2003), tied twice by Nadal (2008+2010) and now by Federer.
yes, and if you just look at hardcourts, Federer had 61% points won on second serve this year (his carreer best before was indeed 60%), Nadal had at most 60% in 2008 (59% in 2010).

Another evidence that Nadal's serve is very underrated

Quote:
Originally Posted by Litotes View Post
Murray's stats not being better should not surprise anyone. After all, he didn't win more matches or tournaments this year than previous years, he just got his wins in better places.
yes, especially Murray was astonishingly consistently dominating other players in Masters 1000 harcourt tournaments between mid-2008 and mid-2009 (and he played a great US Open 2008 semifinal : I disagree that he defeated Nadal because Nadal was "injured"), and the highest number of ATP points he got still was reached in mid-2009 (5505 with the previous ranking system, he only reached a maximum of 4965 points since then, after the US Open this year, and before losing his Tokyo+Shanghai 2011 winning points).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Litotes View Post
Nadal's stats are of course helped by the fact that clay was a larger part of his season than usual. His stats tend to deteriorate post-Wimbledon.
yes, but if you only look at his hardcourt stats, they were also very good, his return stats may have been helped by the fact he played during the "slow hardcourts" period but his serving stats were also very good (87% service games won on hardcourts, tied with 2008 and only less good than 2010 -89%-, 74% points won on first serve, although he was less good on second serve).

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post #802 of 1052 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 12:27 PM
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Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

It seems like there are like a lot of tennis fans who know their stuff on here, so I guess this is quite a basic question, so can anyone inform me as to whether Ferrer can overtake Nadal so as to be seeded 4 at The Aus Open? The rankings are quite confusing, particularly with regard to countable/non countable tournaments for a player.

What scenarios could see Ferrer overtake Nadal before the seedings are listed for The Aus Open?

Thanks.
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post #803 of 1052 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 12:36 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

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Originally Posted by veganlunch View Post
It seems like there are like a lot of tennis fans who know their stuff on here, so I guess this is quite a basic question, so can anyone inform me as to whether Ferrer can overtake Nadal so as to be seeded 4 at The Aus Open? The rankings are quite confusing, particularly with regard to countable/non countable tournaments for a player.

What scenarios could see Ferrer overtake Nadal before the seedings are listed for The Aus Open?

Thanks.
There is only one scenario, but it's highly unlikely to happen. There's 365 points between them.

Coming into the AO pre-week (when seeds are chosen), Nadal has 90 points to defend, Ferrer 75 (from Davis Cup final).

If Nadal doesn't play, and Ferrer wins the first tournament of the year and both matches in the Davis Cup Final (both being live matches), he gains 325 more points, while Nadal loses 90. Their points become:

Nadal - 6705
Ferrer - 6755

This is the only scenario.

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post #804 of 1052 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 12:49 PM
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Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

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Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
There is only one scenario, but it's highly unlikely to happen. There's 365 points between them.

Coming into the AO pre-week (when seeds are chosen), Nadal has 90 points to defend, Ferrer 75 (from Davis Cup final).

If Nadal doesn't play, and Ferrer wins the first tournament of the year and both matches in the Davis Cup Final (both being live matches), he gains 325 more points, while Nadal loses 90. Their points become:

Nadal - 6705
Ferrer - 6755

This is the only scenario.
If Nadal does not play any tournament before AO, he loses 150 from DC, 90 from Doha, and puts on 45 from Halle. So, the lowest he can be is:6795-150-90+45=6600.

Best case scenario for Ferrer is he wins 2 live rubbers. Which will put him at 6430+75=6505 points. He will have 6 tournaments with 250 or better so he can not put on any points next year before AO.

So, there is no scenario where Ferrer will be seeded #4
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post #805 of 1052 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 12:50 PM
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Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Thanks Slasher, but will Nadal not lose points from the Davis Cup last year?
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post #806 of 1052 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 12:54 PM
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Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

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So, there is no scenario where Ferrer will be seeded #4
yes that's what you said : there's no scenario where Ferrer will be seeded number 4 because Ferrer cannot get any point in the first tournament of the year as his minimum optional is 250 points.

At most Ferrer will have 6505 points after Doha-Brisbane if he wins two live rubbers in Davis cup final,

and at worst (if he loses in Doha's first round), Nadal will have 6600 points after Doha.

Then Ferrer cannot overtake Nadal as number 4 seed for the Australian Open.

He had to reach the final of the WTF or defeat Federer in the WTF and win two live rubbers in Davis cup to get that number 4 seed.

But as I showed in above posts, there's a big chance that Ferrer overtakes Nadal at number 4 after the Australian open, unless Nadal plays the AO final again and Ferrer doesn't reach the AO semi. Then if there's a mess with Nadal's seedings, it might be for Indian Wells and Miami, and most importantly, for clay season and Wimbledon.

Ps : as for Doha, I inform people who might be interested here that Federer has announced that he will not play Doha. He will start his year straight in the Australian Open. Later, he will play Rotterdam again. That's all we know about his schedule in 2013 so far.

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Last edited by duong; 11-13-2012 at 01:00 PM.
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post #807 of 1052 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 12:58 PM
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Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

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Originally Posted by duong View Post
yes there's no scenario where Ferrer will be seeded number 4 because Ferrer cannot get any point in the first tournament of the year as his minimum optional is 250 points.

At most Ferrer will have 6505 points after Doha-Brisbane if he wins two live rubbers in Davis cup final,

and at worst (if he loses in Doha's first round), Nadal will have 6600 points after Doha.

Then Ferrer cannot overtake Nadal as number 4 seed for the Australian Open.

But as I showed in above posts, there's a big chance that Ferrer overtakes Nadal at number 4 after the Australian open, unless Nadal plays the AO final again and Ferrer doesn't reach the AO semi. Then if there's a mess with Nadal's seedings, it might be for Indian Wells and Miami, and most importantly, for clay season and Wimbledon.
That was some quick editing. 6535->6500->6505
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post #808 of 1052 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 01:01 PM
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Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

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That was some quick editing. 6535->6500->6505
yes I had made a small error in the beginning

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post #809 of 1052 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 01:08 PM
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Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

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yes I had made a small error in the beginning
Even duong and Slasher get the rankings wrong sometimes. My mistakes don't seem as bad now.
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post #810 of 1052 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 01:13 PM
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Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

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Even duong and Slasher get the rankings wrong sometimes. My mistakes don't seem as bad now.
we all make errors as I told Litotes recently, but at least we try our best, which is not always the case among tennis fans and especially on MTF where often people are convinced of what they say without really giving a serious effort

And they criticize players who so much give their best ...

Anyway it's good to have several people to count, like here where your post made me realize my error

PS : I very often edit, being parted between the desire to be quick and to be precise, the whole story of my life then sometimes it's good for readers to wonder if there may be a second version, usually the editing is quick

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