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post #31 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-12-2012, 12:27 PM
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Re: A question about second serves

On the topic, nowadays I sometimes saw Söderling, Berdych or Tsonga going for a very big second serve.

What makes me laugh on that topic is that :

- if he succeeds, people say "great ! such great "balls" !

- if he misses, people say "double fault ! horrible choke !"

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post #32 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-12-2012, 12:29 PM
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Re: A question about second serves

^^People will say that anyway

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post #33 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-12-2012, 12:29 PM
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Re: A question about second serves

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Originally Posted by alter ego View Post
Chang is at 52%, Courrier at 53% (same as Sampras), Agassi is at 54% though.
Courier and Chang declined a lot as you know, then I prefer looking at stats in their best years rather than at "carreer stats".

Same for Agassi, who had many ups-and-downs in his carreer and kept on playing very long.

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post #34 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-12-2012, 12:40 PM
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Re: A question about second serves

Furthermore if you play someone like Nadal, it's better to lose the point on a df than after a long grueling rally.
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post #35 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-12-2012, 12:41 PM
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Re: A question about second serves

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Courier and Chang declined a lot as you know, then I prefer looking at stats in their best years rather than at "carreer stats".

Same for Agassi, who had many ups-and-downs in his carreer and kept on playing very long.
Well then let's take their best years into account.
Agassi 1999 => 56%
Sampras 93 => 53%

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post #36 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-12-2012, 01:30 PM
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Re: A question about second serves

Game has evolved into a high-percentage type of game. A game of less errors rather than depending on chance to end a point quickly. I mean go back in the past, and you have these players like Sampras and Ivanisevic who used to hit absolutely enormous second serves. But this is certainly not the case now. Although, sometimes you'll still see some big second serves, especially from players like Karlovic, Raonic, Roddick and even Federer occasionally puts a little extra pop on his second delivery, even resulting in aces. Most memorable one for me was when he was serving out the match against Nadal in Madrid 2009 it was deuce and he hit a second serve ace down the T.

But yeah, it is much too risky to ever do it too much, however, I can agree some players should hit a bigger second serve a little more often. Because after all, what is the difference between missing your second serve compared to just rolling it in and then missing the winner?

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post #37 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-12-2012, 04:24 PM
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Re: A question about second serves

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Interesting idea. I'd love to see a top player try this out in the first round of a 250 or something.

Same goes for American football. I heard about a high school coach who never ever kicked on fourth down. I think it actually turned out to be beneficial.

Very interesting at least.
I came in here to basically say this. Athletes and coaches, even world-class ones, are very frequently risk-averse to the extreme. American football is RIFE with situations where the conventional wisdom is extremely conservative, low-risk low-reward. As Gabe (sort of) noted, punting on fourth-and-short in your opponents territory is the most glaring example of this.

Players are also afraid of looking stupid. The conventional wisdom is that you should take a little off your second serve and then if you lose the point anyway, well, at least you played it straight. But DOUBLE FAULTING by going out guns-blazing on your second serve? What a reckless idiot! Wanting to avoid that perception factors into it as well. Again, you see this conservative mentality and an unwillingness to buck the conventional wisdom in most if not all sports.

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post #38 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-12-2012, 04:29 PM
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Re: A question about second serves

Not to derail even more into other sports, but I also wanted to point out that a big reason for the conservative attitude in team sports especially is that coaches want to protect their jobs and reputation so if things don't work out well they want it to be the players' fault. So again, in American football. You punt on fourth-and-5 at midfield in overtime, and go on to lose the game? Players' fault. You go for it on fourth-and-5 at midfield in overtime and don't make the first down? Coach's fault. Coaches would rather it be the players' fault.

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post #39 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-12-2012, 04:45 PM
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Re: A question about second serves

I believe Raonic should be doing this, especially on slow surfaces vs good players where he isn't favoured in a long rally. He had a bunch of mathches on Clay last year where F*W1 was much greater than W2. He does also hit a big, flat second serve every once in a while to keep his opponent honest.
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post #40 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-12-2012, 04:50 PM
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Re: A question about second serves

Did Rennich go for a 138 second serve last night, or something like that?
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post #41 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-12-2012, 05:06 PM
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Re: A question about second serves

Quote:
Originally Posted by alter ego View Post
Chang is at 52%, Courrier at 53% (same as Sampras), Agassi is at 54% though.
Chang, Courier and Agassi all had much better ground games than Sampras, which may contribute to these stats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by duong View Post
On the topic, nowadays I sometimes saw Söderling, Berdych or Tsonga going for a very big second serve.

What makes me laugh on that topic is that :

- if he succeeds, people say "great ! such great "balls" !

- if he misses, people say "double fault ! horrible choke !"
The line between genius and moron is always very thin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BodyServe View Post
Furthermore if you play someone like Nadal, it's better to lose the point on a df than after a long grueling rally.
Well, this depends. If I am playing Nadal and I am up 40-0 or even 40-15, yeah I may attempt to go big on a 2nd serve, especially if I am still tired from the point before.

But if it is 30-30, Deuce, or 40-30 or 30-40, Advantage either way, in that case, I personally would have to hit a regular 2nd serve and take my chances in the rally.

I don't have a serve like Raonic, Roddick, or Tsonga though.

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post #42 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-12-2012, 07:13 PM
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Re: A question about second serves

In the 16 matches yesterday, and for 32 players who played them the F*W1>W2 equation holds for 10 players. They are Ferrer, Berlocq, Matosevic, Malisse, Tsonga, Nalbandian, Muller, Tipsarevic, Lopez, and Nadal

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