Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic? - Page 2 - MensTennisForums.com
View Poll Results: Was Courier a greater claycourter than Fed/Nole?
Courier 2 RGs>FedNole 1 RG/case closed. 11 17.46%
FedNole>Courier, the Nadal factor has limited their success 18 28.57%
Federer>Courier>Nole, Nole has to win an RG to be in that cathegory 23 36.51%
Nole>Courier>Federer, Nole can still win 2 RGs, Fed cant. 11 17.46%
Voters: 63. You may not vote on this poll

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post #16 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-30-2012, 04:37 PM
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Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?

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Originally Posted by sexybeast View Post
Why, not yet? Achievmentwise I understand, but now I am not talking about achievments. Just a simple question, is Djokovic a greater claycourter than Courier? Was Nadal a greater claycourter than Courier 2005 before he won RG? Was Federer better than Courier in 2009?
If you mean is Djokovic better, then yes, he probably is.

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post #17 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-30-2012, 04:45 PM
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Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?

R128 Derrick Rostagno (USA) 24 W 6-3, 6-3, 6-0
R64 Wayne Ferreira (RSA) 79 W 6-2, 6-3, 6-4
R32 Magnus Larsson (SWE) 46 W 6-3, 4-6, 4-6, 7-5, 6-2
R16 Todd Martin (USA) 243 W 6-2, 6-3, 6-3
Q Stefan Edberg (SWE) 1 W 6-4, 2-6, 6-3, 6-4
S Michael Stich (GER) 12 W 6-2, 6-7(8), 6-2, 6-4
W Andre Agassi (USA) 4 W 3-6, 6-4, 2-6, 6-1, 6-4

Courier had to beat great players en route to the final. I was not referring to the FO only, but about the era's clay specialists.

Federer's 09 FO then: Martin, Acacuso, Mathieu, Haas, Monfils, Del Potro, Soderling
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post #18 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-30-2012, 04:46 PM
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Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?

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Originally Posted by sexybeast View Post
AJ also says all greats would find a way in any era, I dont fully agree with that statement (Rosewall and Mcenroe would not find a way in the modern era, even Sampras doubtfully would achieve much, that is what I think atleast). However, I see absolutely no reason to question Borg's ability to learn a great forehand with 90s raquets or modern raquets, ofcourse it would be great and he would love to play in the modern grinding era of the 2000s, even if Djokovic and Nadal probably would give him a hell of a fight.

Anyway, Borg would beat Courier in any era on clay, that much I can say without any doubt.
What I meant was that if Borg time traveled and was given a modern raquet, he would probably not beat Courier on clay and be clueless against Rafa and Djokovic.

If Borg grew up in another era so many things would have been different! One thing the raquets, another there would X times more people trying for a professional tennis career.

Last edited by buzz; 01-30-2012 at 04:48 PM. Reason: spelling
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post #19 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-30-2012, 04:49 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?

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Originally Posted by LawrenceOfTennis View Post
R128 Derrick Rostagno (USA) 24 W 6-3, 6-3, 6-0
R64 Wayne Ferreira (RSA) 79 W 6-2, 6-3, 6-4
R32 Magnus Larsson (SWE) 46 W 6-3, 4-6, 4-6, 7-5, 6-2
R16 Todd Martin (USA) 243 W 6-2, 6-3, 6-3
Q Stefan Edberg (SWE) 1 W 6-4, 2-6, 6-3, 6-4
S Michael Stich (GER) 12 W 6-2, 6-7(8), 6-2, 6-4
W Andre Agassi (USA) 4 W 3-6, 6-4, 2-6, 6-1, 6-4

Courier had to beat great players en route to the final. I was not referring to the FO only, but about the era's clay specialists.

Federer's 09 FO then: Martin, Acacuso, Mathieu, Haas, Monfils, Del Potro, Soderling
I dont see any clay specialists at all on that route, I only see hardcourters and serve and volleyers. Not a single clay court specialist.

Federer's 2009 is more impressive.

All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
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post #20 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-30-2012, 04:49 PM
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Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?

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Nadal with 90s raquets wouldnt lose a set against Courier
Are you sure?
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post #21 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-30-2012, 04:52 PM
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Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?

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Federer's 2009 is more impressive.
No, it's not. If we look at the opponents in their final (91' and 09') we see Agassi and Soderling. Big difference. I'm not saying that Agassi is a better clay courter than Soderling but he was already a multiple slam finalist unlike the unexperienced Soderling. It was a bigger achievement to beat that Agassi.
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post #22 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-30-2012, 04:53 PM
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Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?

Is Courier coming out of retirement? if not who cares?

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post #23 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-30-2012, 04:59 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?

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Originally Posted by LawrenceOfTennis View Post
No, it's not. If we look at the opponents in their final (91' and 09') we see Agassi and Soderling. Big difference. I'm not saying that Agassi is a better clay courter than Soderling but he was already a multiple slam finalist unlike the unexperienced Soderling. It was a bigger achievement to beat that Agassi.
In fact lets look at Courier's incredible route to win 91 RG, look at the clay season his opponents had besides French Open that year:

Todd Martin 0-1 on clay in 1991
Stefan Edberg 2-2
Andre Agassi 2-3
Michael Stich 4-3
Wayne Fereira 3-3
Rostango 0-3
Larsson 3-4

Incredible, only Stich had a positive W/L on clay that year of all players Courier encountered and no one won more than 4 matches on the surface....

What about Courier himself in 1991?

He won a grand total of 2 matches on clay outside RG and lost 2 matches aswell!

Imagine someone like Djokovic having such a clay season, would he still be able to win Roland Garros against Nadal and Federer back to back in SF and F?

All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
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post #24 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-30-2012, 05:02 PM
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Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?

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Originally Posted by sexybeast View Post
In fact lets look at Courier's incredible route to win 91 RG, look at the clay season his opponents had besides French Open that year:

Todd Martin 0-1 on clay in 1991
Stefan Edberg 2-2
Andre Agassi 2-3
Michael Stich 4-3
Wayne Fereira 3-3
Rostango 0-3
Larsson 3-4

Incredible, only Stich had a positive W/L on clay that year of all players Courier encountered and no one won more than 4 matches on the surface....

What about Courier himself in 1991?

He won a grand total of 2 matches on clay outside RG and lost 2 matches aswell!

Imagine someone like Djokovic having such a clay season, would he still be able to win Roland Garros against Nadal and Federer back to back in SF and F?
I stated I consider Federer a greater clay courter than Courier.
But I consider Courier's FO win a bigger achievement because of the reasons above. What do you think about Agassi/Soderling difficulty wise?
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post #25 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-30-2012, 05:11 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?

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I stated I consider Federer a greater clay courter than Courier.
But I consider Courier's FO win a bigger achievement because of the reasons above. What do you think about Agassi/Soderling difficulty wise?
I think Soderling was playing much alot better claycourt tennis in 2009 than Agassi ever played in his whole career, in fact it was one of the most impressive runs in any slam I have ever seen in my life. What did Agassi do in 1991 on clay?

He defeated Pat Mcenroe, Mancini, Hlasek and Becker in SF to get to RG final. He had a horrible year on clay, he didnt even care about clay, didnt even practice on red clay and came totaly unprepared to the tournament. His route was as easy as Courier's, where were all the great claycourters in that era?

Soderling in 2009 RG defeated Ferrer, Davydenko, Nadal and Gonzalez on his way to RG final. He was alot better prepared, was 18-6 on clay that year.

Dont forget Del Potro aswell, he was amazing in 2009 and gave one hell of a fight in the SF. Del Potro is also fully capable of winning RG one day.

All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.

Last edited by sexybeast; 01-30-2012 at 05:20 PM.
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post #26 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-30-2012, 05:25 PM
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Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?

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Del Potro is also fully capable of winning RG one day.
Agreed. I think RG is his only chance to win another slam.
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post #27 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-30-2012, 08:07 PM
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Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?

Are you nut? He is AWAY better.
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post #28 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-30-2012, 08:08 PM
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Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?

Djokovic not yet, but I think he can win 2 French Opens.
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post #29 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-30-2012, 08:15 PM
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Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?

Borg, Lendl, Courier, Muster, Kuerten, Nadal

Those are the ultimate clay monsters from the 70s up.

Djokovic and Federer are like the McEnroe, Agassi, Stich, Coretja or Ferrero of their time, not even Bruguera.

So no comparison is even possible. Even if Federer wins one more RG he'd be a Bruguera.
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post #30 of 61 (permalink) Old 01-30-2012, 08:18 PM
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Re: Does anyone believe Jim Courier was a greater claycourter than Federer/Djokovic?

Courier has two RGs, Djokovic has 0

/thread

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