The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP level. - Page 3 - MensTennisForums.com

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post #31 of 176 (permalink) Old 04-18-2011, 11:10 PM
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Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

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Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
Berlocq is probably the best example currently.

Soeda doesn't even fit this definition to me, because almost all of his good results in challengers are in weak challengers in Asia or poor entry lists in HC challengers when most guys are at better events. He's basically played the system to get where he is, and he'll probably be out of the top 100 after next week.
Berlocq is pretty good for clay ATPs.
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post #32 of 176 (permalink) Old 04-18-2011, 11:12 PM
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Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

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Takao Suzuki won 14 challenger titles and 22 ATP main draw matches but never reached the Top-100.
What I find remarkable though is that 17 of 22 match wins came at the same tournament -- Tokyo Japan Open.
Fast hard court, sometimes indoor.

Takao was a monster there.
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post #33 of 176 (permalink) Old 04-18-2011, 11:17 PM
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Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

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Originally Posted by Henry Chinaski View Post
that's an awful idea.

current system is mostly fine although can be a bit weighted in favour of challengers.

I think there should be more points for wins in qualies. It pains me to see guys who have the balls to try and qualify for bigger events end up with nothing while the guys who never bother can pick up easy points in challengers.

I have done zero analysis on this but qualie draws seem to be getting weaker and weaker and it's not surprising with the way points are weighted.
It's an excellent idea because it makes the ranking spots between challenger level and tour level the most red hot in the whole ATP.

Qualies are bullshit in the first place.
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post #34 of 176 (permalink) Old 04-18-2011, 11:18 PM
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Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

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Takao Suzuki won 14 challenger titles and 22 ATP main draw matches but never reached the Top-100.
What I find remarkable though is that 17 of 22 match wins came at the same tournament -- Tokyo Japan Open.
It's the guy that I was actually trying to refer to instead of Soeda.

Compared to the ATP there are way more indoor courts in the Challengers.
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post #35 of 176 (permalink) Old 04-18-2011, 11:47 PM
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Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

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Originally Posted by Henry Chinaski View Post
I think there should be more points for wins in qualies. It pains me to see guys who have the balls to try and qualify for bigger events end up with nothing while the guys who never bother can pick up easy points in challengers.
indeed... the women's tour actually does offer that, one facet of that tour that i always had me wondereding why the atp didnt copy - seeing as though you want to encourage higher quality fields at your showpiece events...

when they changed the points weighting, i dont think there was much research into what the changes would do... it seemed more like: ok, we're having a facelift, the gold and silver colours are nice, not sure how it'll affect the rankings tho... dusn matter, cos it looks ace

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why are you so seriously
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post #36 of 176 (permalink) Old 04-18-2011, 11:55 PM
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Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

Kamke is a classic case of an AAAA player. Great at Challengers last year, dire on the ATP circuit this year.
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post #37 of 176 (permalink) Old 04-19-2011, 12:18 AM
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Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

Problem with the challengers is they increased the points over the time, but haven't increased the prizemoney relatively.

On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

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Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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post #38 of 176 (permalink) Old 04-19-2011, 12:36 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

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Originally Posted by GlennMirnyi View Post
Berlocq is pretty good for clay ATPs.
He can make R2s at ATP clay events, and an occasional big run, but he's 22-41 in his career at the ATP level on clay. He's also never spent back to back seasons in the top 100.
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post #39 of 176 (permalink) Old 04-19-2011, 12:37 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

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Problem with the challengers is they increased the points over the time, but haven't increased the prizemoney relatively.
True.
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post #40 of 176 (permalink) Old 04-19-2011, 12:40 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

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Originally Posted by Henry Chinaski View Post
I think there should be more points for wins in qualies. It pains me to see guys who have the balls to try and qualify for bigger events end up with nothing while the guys who never bother can pick up easy points in challengers.
In principle agree with this. At the same time, it would take away from challenger fields especially during certain weeks, so there has to be a balance.
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post #41 of 176 (permalink) Old 04-19-2011, 12:42 AM
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Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

With that problem, this means players will stick around longer in the challengers.

On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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post #42 of 176 (permalink) Old 04-19-2011, 12:49 AM
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Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

our Przysiężny struggles to win MD matches on ATP level yet he's really decent in challengers, usually the small ones but not only

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post #43 of 176 (permalink) Old 04-19-2011, 12:55 AM
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Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

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Originally Posted by Li Ching Yuen View Post
It's an excellent idea because it makes the ranking spots between challenger level and tour level the most red hot in the whole ATP.

Qualies are bullshit in the first place.
nah seriously, it's reallt bad. you'd just end up with atp draws full of absolute cannon fodder.

I'd rather have Pere Riba off playing a clay court challenger somewhere than being forced to take a spot in a fast indoor tournament instead of a decent fast court player outside the top 100 like, say, Gilles Muller.

No idea what "qualies are bullshit" is even supposed to mean.
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post #44 of 176 (permalink) Old 04-19-2011, 12:56 AM
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Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

Maximo Gonzalez tears up clay challengers, passes through atp qualies, and then loses in the 1r most of the time. He isn't good enough for ATP's apparently.

Bjorn Phau was also a challenger king (now losing that too) but he's had only glimpses here and there of success in atp main draws.
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post #45 of 176 (permalink) Old 04-19-2011, 12:58 AM
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Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

If you're good enough then you will make the transition. As for Dimitrov too soon to write him off.

On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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