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post #1 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-08-2011, 06:09 PM Thread Starter
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The 'ATP 500 Rule' should be cancelled

The 'ATP 500 Rule' should be cancelled

This 500 rule is an a aberration, when the first 500 arrive, there are always players who are screwed over players who are heavily favored. All players between 25 and 30 have no other choice but to go to the 500, knowing they may face top 10 players on first round. So unless a (very rare) upset happens, they are out as soon as first round. They can have good draw too, but will have to face a seed on second round anyway, so winning 20 pts is not that interesting.

On the other hand players just below 30 can go freely to 250 events full of mugs, and are not really threaten until the QF. Worst, they even have BYE on first rounds! Meanings they just have to win one match to win 45 pts, while others must shake the Pillars of Sky just to gain as many points in 500 events!

an example:
Hewitt is ranked 67 and seeded 7 at San Jose:
1st round: Bjorn Phau (0)
2nd round: Alejandro Falla (20)

Bagdhatis ended the year in top 30, congrats to him. Sadly this is his prize:
1st round: Andy Murray (20)

Same amount of points, not exactly the same challenge if you ask me.

You can tell me some top 30 choose to go to 250 events too. That's their right, so far. But don't forget that sooner or later, they will have to play a 500 events. If Monfils wins 3 small events like San Jose this year, he will have to say bye-bye to his last 250 points as soon as he will have fulfilled his 4 'ATP 500 derogatory events'. And good luck winning more points! The only way is to reach a 500 final!

many top 30 players end the season with:
ATP 500 events:
90
90
45
45
best of other tournaments:
250
150

Don't you see something wrong?
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post #2 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-08-2011, 07:19 PM
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Re: The 'ATP 500 Rule' should be cancelled

I agree that it can be unfair. But even if you put fairness aside, the '500 rule' is still annoying because it makes ranking calculation too complicated in my opinion.

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post #3 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-08-2011, 07:21 PM
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Re: The 'ATP 500 Rule' should be cancelled

I agree, it's a clownish rule and pretty stupid if you ask me, same as the mandatory MS rule, players should decide which tournaments they want to play

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post #4 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-08-2011, 07:29 PM
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Re: The 'ATP 500 Rule' should be cancelled

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Originally Posted by StatRacket View Post
I agree that it can be unfair. But even if you put fairness aside, the '500 rule' is still annoying because it makes ranking calculation too complicated in my opinion.
+1 One of the most important reasons why they changed the system was making it easier for the casual fans to follow. And now with the Commitment/Non-commitment player or all the 500 rules, it's gotten even worse.
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post #5 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-08-2011, 07:43 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The 'ATP 500 Rule' should be cancelled

I think a certain amount of MS should be mandatory but not all of them. Players have to forfeit for very "strange" reasons to avoid some events.
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post #6 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-08-2011, 07:57 PM
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Re: The 'ATP 500 Rule' should be cancelled

Definitely. IMO almost no freedom to schedule is the biggest issue, followed by advantage of being 31 rather than 30 at the end of the season. ATP not being able to follow its system says all that needs to be said about complications with rankings calculations.

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About a 500 depends which players he beat on the road to the title . About masters 1000 or GS 1/2 you have my word
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post #7 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-08-2011, 08:19 PM
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Re: The 'ATP 500 Rule' should be cancelled

No. Sponsors and organizers spend a lot of money on these 500 and MS tournaments to give us quality tournaments. If players could go wherever they wanted despite ranking tennis would lose. I don't want to see top20 players cruise through MM tournaments where the fields are weak on a weekly basis just because they can.

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I think a certain amount of MS should be mandatory but not all of them. Players have to forfeit for very "strange" reasons to avoid some events.
I can count the times this happen on my fingers, and it's exlusively top4 players doing it. If they don't wanna play then their loss. Players want to play the Masters tournaments, that's where the prestige, ranking points and money lies. Remember that Slams are not ATP-events.
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post #8 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-08-2011, 08:59 PM
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Re: The 'ATP 500 Rule' should be cancelled

All mandatory rules should be cancelled. They are stupid? Let players schedule as they like.
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post #9 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-08-2011, 09:00 PM
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post #10 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-08-2011, 09:11 PM
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Re: The 'ATP 500 Rule' should be cancelled

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Originally Posted by joe89 View Post
No. Sponsors and organizers spend a lot of money on these 500 and MS tournaments to give us quality tournaments. If players could go wherever they wanted despite ranking tennis would lose. I don't want to see top20 players cruise through MM tournaments where the fields are weak on a weekly basis just because they can.
Top 10-15 will still mostly go to 500 due to both money and points, just as they did to gold series before, rather than some weaker ones.

Another thing, make Queens and Halle 500 whether they want to or not. It's ridiculous to get 250 points for the win there when the field is stronger than some 500. That would also alleviate some of the scheduling problems as it would count as one 500 played.

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Samanosuke showing his tennis expertise, promising to self-ban himslef from MTF permanently should Čilić:
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Originally Posted by samanosuke View Post
About a 500 depends which players he beat on the road to the title . About masters 1000 or GS 1/2 you have my word
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post #11 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-08-2011, 10:51 PM
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Re: The 'ATP 500 Rule' should be cancelled

I agree as well, but u have one mistake in the first post. Its 45 points for R2 in 500s, not 20 as in 250s tourns. 500 tournaments are mostly entertaining, but its true that the players r 20-30 mostly suffer form that rule with not getting needed results in them. I mean the whole new structure of points is a rubbish. Its by far favored for the top players, big diferences between F, SF and earlier rounds. The previus structure of 1000-700-450 was a lot more competitive than present 1000-600-360. WTA went for that 2000-1400-900 in GS and so on and its better. And the groupings of masters, 500 and 250 is bad too, past model of 500Masters, 250, 175 events was fairer. Nowadays its better for playes ranked 70-100 to play challengers than 250s or try to Q to 500 or 1000.

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post #12 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-09-2011, 01:54 AM
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Re: The 'ATP 500 Rule' should be cancelled

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Originally Posted by TommyCZE View Post
I agree as well, but u have one mistake in the first post. Its 45 points for R2 in 500s, not 20 as in 250s tourns. 500 tournaments are mostly entertaining, but its true that the players r 20-30 mostly suffer form that rule with not getting needed results in them. I mean the whole new structure of points is a rubbish. Its by far favored for the top players, big diferences between F, SF and earlier rounds. The previus structure of 1000-700-450 was a lot more competitive than present 1000-600-360. WTA went for that 2000-1400-900 in GS and so on and its better. And the groupings of masters, 500 and 250 is bad too, past model of 500Masters, 250, 175 events was fairer. Nowadays its better for playes ranked 70-100 to play challengers than 250s or try to Q to 500 or 1000.
Depends on the draw size. Barcelona, Hamburg and Washington only give 20 points for first round wins because their draw size is greater than 32.

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post #13 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-09-2011, 03:20 AM
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Re: The 'ATP 500 Rule' should be cancelled

While I agree that the 500 Rule is not completely fair or ideal and needs fine-tuning, I disagree with the following points:

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Originally Posted by shuhrat View Post
+1 One of the most important reasons why they changed the system was making it easier for the casual fans to follow. And now with the Commitment/Non-commitment player or all the 500 rules, it's gotten even worse.
I think you could argue it is a lot clearer for the casual fans. Tournaments giving away 2000, 1000, 500 or 250 points makes complete sense to a most people. I'd argue once you get into the ins and outs of exactly how they need to structure their calendar in terms of how many of each they play, you're getting into a different kind of fan. The kind that most of us on here are, and we should be able to deal with it!

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All mandatory rules should be cancelled. They are stupid? Let players schedule as they like.
Let us not forget that it is the job of ATP Tour professionals to play tennis. The fans pay money in advance to watch the players they think will be competing. If a player has a legitimate excuse for missing a tournament then so be it, there's already rules to allow that. Yes, it can make for a tough scedule but then the schedule should be changed, not the rules of mandatory participation. That's just my opinion...

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post #14 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-09-2011, 08:40 AM
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Re: The 'ATP 500 Rule' should be cancelled

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Originally Posted by StatRacket View Post
Depends on the draw size. Barcelona, Hamburg and Washington only give 20 points for first round wins because their draw size is greater than 32.
yes but Hamburg and Washington draws are not that great, it's different for Barcelona.
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post #15 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-09-2011, 08:49 AM
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Re: The 'ATP 500 Rule' should be cancelled

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Originally Posted by joe89 View Post
No. Sponsors and organizers spend a lot of money on these 500 and MS tournaments to give us quality tournaments. If players could go wherever they wanted despite ranking tennis would lose. I don't want to see top20 players cruise through MM tournaments where the fields are weak on a weekly basis just because they can.
yes one has to remember that the ATP500-rule was introduced in compensation for a big increase in the prize money for these tournaments.

It's true that the ATP500 rule didn't change anything for the biggest ATP500 tournaments which are Dubai and Barcelona.

Rotterdam improved a little bit.

The improvement of the field was more obvious for Beijing and Basel.

Washington, Memphis, Acapulco, Tokyo (all non-European tournaments), also Valencia, also improved but are maybe not (even more for Hamburg) where you would expect an ATP500 tournament to be.
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