Which is worse: Fixing or Doping? - MensTennisForums.com
View Poll Results: Which is worse
Fixing 71 42.51%
Doping 96 57.49%
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post #1 of 157 (permalink) Old 12-26-2010, 12:22 AM Thread Starter
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Which is worse: Fixing or Doping?

Both embarrassments to the game and problems that tennis has not been able to (or strongly attempted to) eliminate. But if you think about it, they are corruptions that result from two different mentalities. Dopers try to win at the expense of cheating, while fixers decide to lose for money. Tennis fans will certainly condemn both, but which in your opinion is worse and why? For example, if you were given the power to hand out bans to a known doper and a known fixer, who would you punish more harshly?

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post #2 of 157 (permalink) Old 12-26-2010, 12:27 AM
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Re: Which is worse: Fixing or Doping?

Doping. Fixer will lose a few matches for money, but otherwise will try hard to maintain his rank as high as possible. Doping is just pathetic cheating and all of them should be banned for life. Every time doper comes on court, he disgraces the game.
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post #3 of 157 (permalink) Old 12-26-2010, 12:32 AM
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Re: Which is worse: Fixing or Doping?

doping obviously.

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post #4 of 157 (permalink) Old 12-26-2010, 12:35 AM
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post #5 of 157 (permalink) Old 12-26-2010, 12:40 AM
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Re: Which is worse: Fixing or Doping?

Doping,
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post #6 of 157 (permalink) Old 12-26-2010, 12:42 AM
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Re: Which is worse: Fixing or Doping?

Doping by an extremely wide margin.
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post #7 of 157 (permalink) Old 12-26-2010, 12:45 AM
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Re: Which is worse: Fixing or Doping?

lets see..

fixing - your sacrificing integrity and are labeled a fixer for the rest of your career, even if you never really do again. It sets a bad mark on your integirty as a player

doping - your gaining an unfair advantage in the competition and then after your found out if you are everyone suddenly starts questioning your accomplishments.

so what's worse" sacrificing integrity or cheating?

cheating for sure
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post #8 of 157 (permalink) Old 12-26-2010, 01:36 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Which is worse: Fixing or Doping?

Well the consensus for now seems to be that doping is worse, but I wasn't as convinced as you guys, which is why I posted the question- to see what other people think. But think about it this way, a fixer does not even care enough about the game that he grew up playing and relegates to simply taking money. They have completely given up their competitive spirit, just for money. I'm not sure the ban times for betting or fixing matches in tennis but for baseball for example, there is a lifetime ban for betting, much more serious than the few months someone gets for steroids.
I may just be playing devil's advocate there, because I also slightly lean toward doping as being the more serious offense. With doping you have the potential to leave a false mark on the game, but fixing just makes you a looser that is never really remembered.

Oh, and Filo V., is your vote at all influenced by your love of Italian players?

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post #9 of 157 (permalink) Old 12-26-2010, 02:19 AM
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Re: Which is worse: Fixing or Doping?

Doping, which pretty much renders your entire career as fraudulent.

If I was a 140 ranked tennis player (roughly) who sometimes made it into a few ATP minor tournaments and was making £20,000 a year after travel/coach expenses, I imagine that I would be involved in fixing at some point in my career. The lifespan of a pro-tennis career is pretty damn short, for the guys that are slugging it out on the fringes and below they aren't making that much more than a living wage..... when you can make £15,000 for fixing a single first round match at ATP Bucharest (or more if you know betting well and orchestrate something a bit more creative) it's a huge temptation. Some of these guys have a wife/kids to think about, or just an uncertain future after retiring.
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post #10 of 157 (permalink) Old 12-26-2010, 02:55 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Which is worse: Fixing or Doping?

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Doping, which pretty much renders your entire career as fraudulent.

If I was a 140 ranked tennis player (roughly) who sometimes made it into a few ATP minor tournaments and was making £20,000 a year after travel/coach expenses, I imagine that I would be involved in fixing at some point in my career. The lifespan of a pro-tennis career is pretty damn short, for the guys that are slugging it out on the fringes and below they aren't making that much more than a living wage..... when you can make £15,000 for fixing a single first round match at ATP Bucharest (or more if you know betting well and orchestrate something a bit more creative) it's a huge temptation. Some of these guys have a wife/kids to think about, or just an uncertain future after retiring.
Well, the truth is both of these ways of cheating are a way of earning money. Fixing has become so common on the tour especially at these lower ranks, that it has almost become acceptable. I really have had the same reaction to it as you do: this player probably had no chance to win the tournament, so let him make some money, but maybe that's not the right way to think about it. Your example of the 140th ranked player is an interesting one because that 140th ranked player could take the fixing road to earn a profit, but he could take the doping road as well. Let's take Mariano Puerta as an example, entering 2005 ranked 132nd in the world. He could have found some people to work with, put on a good acting job and done nothing on the court to earn some money. But he decided to use performance enhancers to get ahead. Remember that this is not body building or weightlifting, and Puerta still had to go out there and work hard with his touch, with his game tactics and with his mental stability to earn that money. Some say that the levels of drugs in Puerta's blood were not even significant enough to give him an edge, but because some drugs were found, we still discredit all of his achievements. For the sake of argument, I say that Puerta taking some drugs and still having to play tennis every day is not as bad as if he took some money and became an actor out there instead of a tennis player.

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post #11 of 157 (permalink) Old 12-26-2010, 03:06 AM
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Re: Which is worse: Fixing or Doping?

Well, maybe I'm playing devil's advocate here... but if you look at it, fixing GUARANTEES a false result; doping doesn't. What was Odesnik's career high rank: 77! Great results from those drugs, eh? Really worth the cost and risking your health.

In the Olympics and other competitions, you hear how the people who finished 45th and 50th were caught for doping. Not big news when it isn't a winner, but it happens quite often. So using PEDs is no guarantee you'll be any good.
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post #12 of 157 (permalink) Old 12-26-2010, 03:26 AM
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Re: Which is worse: Fixing or Doping?

Was suprised by the poll.

Fixing definately.

Maybe tennis is a bit different, but there are many sports where pretty much everyone at the top is doping. Many dopers only cheat because they have no choice if they want to keep up with the competition.

Also, dopers pay the piper when they have serious health problems later in life.

Match fixers profit from their dealings with no punishment whatsoever.

Match fixers have no place in sport. Neither do dopers, but I think fixing is far worse.

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post #13 of 157 (permalink) Old 12-26-2010, 03:28 AM
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Re: Which is worse: Fixing or Doping?

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Oh, and Filo V., is your vote at all influenced by your love of Italian players?
Yes, it most certainly is.
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post #14 of 157 (permalink) Old 12-26-2010, 03:34 AM
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Re: Which is worse: Fixing or Doping?

Fixing is more or less a business decision. Doping is different. Fixers aren't actively seeking to cheat. They don't have the intent in their minds of "well, I'm going to throw this match, because I don't give a fuck." No, they are generally guys from 50+ in the rankings, meaning not seeded in majors, losing early in most big events, having to play qualifying at some events and having to play challengers. And then of course the full time challenger/future/ATP Q players. These guys are literally trying to SURVIVE with nothing. No sponsors, going city to city, in filthy and dangerous conditions. No real family support, and extreme pressures from gamblers/mafia/etc. in their countries (which is why you see some of the most extreme fixers from Eastern Europe and Italy for instance) to fix and make money for them and for the gamblers. Is it cheating the game? To a certain extent, but it's more cheating yourself than anything else. I don't support fixing but it's definitely a business transaction made by people who are in desperate situations, or who have become so entrenched in that lifestyle, that they can't get out of it.
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post #15 of 157 (permalink) Old 12-26-2010, 04:04 AM
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Re: Which is worse: Fixing or Doping?

They are both disgraceful to the game. This question is like asking which is worse, **** or murder?

Those that dope are disgracing the game, but at least are trying to win at all costs. Those that fix are trying to score some extra cash with a fake result.

As a player who is going to make his money playing and winning w/o fixing or doping, I am really not in any position to say which is worse. However, I can definitely see the temptation of a player trying either or both in an effort to, at the end of the day, make money. Some players also have a wife and/or kids to worry about.

When I am a top player and a guy ranked 50-100 spots below me is caught doping or cheating, I definitely WILL NOT call him out as a cheat etc. like most players did in Houston this year w/ Odesnik. To me, that's fucked up. I would tell the press all the pressures of the tour and why a player would make that decision instead of berating the guy for falling victim to temptation.

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