Topspin ≠ Defensive Rafa - MensTennisForums.com

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post #1 of 62 (permalink) Old 01-11-2010, 05:22 AM Thread Starter
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Topspin ≠ Defensive Rafa

I've been reading on this board all kinds of BS about moonballs and moonballers, and how flat shots own moonballs, which is total BS.

Rafa has proved many times that when he's aggressive enough and doesn't play 1000 miles behind the baseline he can hit flat hitters off the court, like in the DAvy match 1st set, or he can easily overpower Djoko when he's confident enough, like 2 years ago at RG, he can even S&V effectively with topspin. (It's another matter that unfortunately he too often reverts to his passive, 1000 miles behind the baseline game)

Heavy topspin in many respects is better than flat shots, it's harder to handle, better angles, works on clay too, etc., etc., so I think it's annoying when some people identify topspin with a particular player, especially when he's playing bad.
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post #2 of 62 (permalink) Old 01-11-2010, 05:30 AM
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Re: Topspin ≠ Defensive Rafa

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Originally Posted by Nekromanata
(It's another matter that unfortunately he too often reverts to his passive, 1000 miles behind the baseline game)
Most people's issue with Nadal are with this and not with his topspin-based shots per se. Most players nowadays play with heavy topspin to some degree.
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post #3 of 62 (permalink) Old 01-11-2010, 05:31 AM
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Re: Topspin ≠ Defensive Rafa

It's simple it depends on the situation. There are reasons that heavy hitters have done well against Nadal. It's common sense if they are on their game, the ball comes faster and flatter and takes away the time Nadal needs to impart the spin. He is fortunate that he isn't playing on any really fast surfaces.

Sometimes it's used defensively and other times not.

On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

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Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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post #4 of 62 (permalink) Old 01-11-2010, 05:43 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Topspin ≠ Defensive Rafa

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Originally Posted by Action Jackson View Post
It's common sense if they are on their game, the ball comes faster and flatter and takes away the time Nadal needs to impart the spin.
People overestimate the time needed to impart the spin, it's nothing if you take into consideration all of its advantages.

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He is fortunate that he isn't playing on any really fast surfaces.

Sometimes it's used defensively and other times not.
But the point is, he can beat even Tsonga in Rotterdam or he can beat people on very fast surfaces when he isn't too defensive.
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post #5 of 62 (permalink) Old 01-11-2010, 05:50 AM
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Re: Topspin ≠ Defensive Rafa

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Originally Posted by Nekromanta View Post
People overestimate the time needed to impart the spin, it's nothing if you take into consideration all of its advantages.



But the point is, he can beat even Tsonga in Rotterdam or he can beat people on very fast surfaces when he isn't too defensive.
If you think the surfaces are fast now, then you are having a laugh.

For consistently effective heavy topspin and the court takes the bounce that is makes it a viable play, then a player is going to need time and I don't care who it is.

Once they are rushed, then it's short balls without the effective spin and it becomes fodder at worst and Nadal goes on the defensive.

On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

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Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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post #6 of 62 (permalink) Old 01-11-2010, 06:07 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Topspin ≠ Defensive Rafa

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Once they are rushed, then it's short balls without the effective spin and it becomes fodder at worst and Nadal goes on the defensive.
However, it has nothing to do with topspin. When the flat hits are rushed, they are weak and ineffective too.

It also depends on how skilled someone is at using topspin. Nadal too, even with backhand, when it seems like he got hit off the court and has no time at all, (and every flat hitter in the same situation would fail) can hit lightning fast (and long) topspin shots.

Too bad that many people don't notice that all the problems Nadal has are the result of bad strategy and not the "moonballs".
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post #7 of 62 (permalink) Old 01-11-2010, 06:20 AM
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Re: Topspin ≠ Defensive Rafa

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Originally Posted by Nekromanta View Post
I've been reading on this board all kinds of BS about moonballs and moonballers, and how flat shots own moonballs, which is total BS.

Rafa has proved many times that when he's aggressive enough and doesn't play 1000 miles behind the baseline he can hit flat hitters off the court, like in the DAvy match 1st set, or he can easily overpower Djoko when he's confident enough, like 2 years ago at RG, he can even S&V effectively with topspin. (It's another matter that unfortunately he too often reverts to his passive, 1000 miles behind the baseline game)

Heavy topspin in many respects is better than flat shots, it's harder to handle, better angles, works on clay too, etc., etc., so I think it's annoying when some people identify topspin with a particular player, especially when he's playing bad.
Nadal can destroy anyone on clay.

Topspin, underspin, flat, doesn't matter. If you hit them deep or with an extreme angle, it'll be an effective shot.
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post #8 of 62 (permalink) Old 01-11-2010, 06:33 AM
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Re: Topspin ≠ Defensive Rafa

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Originally Posted by Nekromanta View Post
However, it has nothing to do with topspin. When the flat hits are rushed, they are weak and ineffective too.

It also depends on how skilled someone is at using topspin. Nadal too, even with backhand, when it seems like he got hit off the court and has no time at all, (and every flat hitter in the same situation would fail) can hit lightning fast (and long) topspin shots.

Too bad that many people don't notice that all the problems Nadal has are the result of bad strategy and not the "moonballs".
Missed the point again. Bigger swings have more potential to mistime their shots and on the forehand Nadal has a big swing to generate all that spin, but not on the backhand side. It's because his swing isn't as long on the backhand side that he can hit some fast passing shots on that side. Hence big hitters go to this forehand on fast surfaces to open up the backhand.

Nadal is skilled at topspin, in any sport cut down preparation time on the opponent then it's going to impact on them. Considering he has to flatten the ball out on faster surfaces to be better on his body and cut down match time. When he is confident he can do that at times, but when he gets pushed around, then he retreats back to his comfort zone. No different from any other player, they go to their comfort zone when it gets tough more often than not.

On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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post #9 of 62 (permalink) Old 01-11-2010, 06:49 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Topspin ≠ Defensive Rafa

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Originally Posted by Action Jackson View Post
on the forehand Nadal has a big swing to generate all that spin, but not on the backhand side.
Like he can't hit incredible passing shots with fh. He uses the bigger swing when he chooses to (or has time to), but he can be effective with smaller swing fhs too.

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Originally Posted by Action Jackson View Post
but when he gets pushed around, then he retreats back to his comfort zone. No different from any other player, they go to their comfort zone when it gets tough more often than not.
The exact opposite is true (of Nadal)!
THe recent Davy match is one of the proofs. He was playing outside of his comfort zone when he was playing aggressively, and he won the set 6-0. Then, without reason to change the aggressive tactics (and because he felt that he won the match already by Breaking Davi's spirit with the bagel) he comfily reverted to defense (his comfort zone) which caused him to lose the match.
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post #10 of 62 (permalink) Old 01-11-2010, 06:59 AM
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Re: Topspin ≠ Defensive Rafa

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Originally Posted by Nekromanta View Post
Like he can't hit incredible passing shots with fh. He uses the bigger swing when he chooses to (or has time to), but he can be effective with smaller swing fhs too.
Are you so clouded that you can't see why Nadal struggles against certain players on hardcourts. He doesn't get to hit many passing shots on the FH because most players when they approach to the backhand. Is it really that hard to see his time gets taken away on the hardcourt and when it's done properly he gets exposed.


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The exact opposite is true (of Nadal)!
THe recent Davy match is one of the proofs. He was playing outside of his comfort zone when he was playing aggressively, and he won the set 6-0. Then, without reason to change the aggressive tactics (and because he felt that he won the match already by Breaking Davi's spirit with the bagel) he comfily reverted to defense (his comfort zone) which caused him to lose the match.
Hahaha, you base it on one match and not since his senior career from 2003. Tsonga, Gonzalez, Berdych, Blake, Söderling,and Djokovic when they have beaten him on hardcourts outdoors and indoors they dominated the baseline and through their shotmaking were able to push him further and further behind the baseline and exposed his weaknesses which is much harder to do on the clay, because of that T word and Nadal's overall ability on the surfaces.

The way you make it out Nadal is a flat hard hitter and the matches are on his racquet alone, which is not the case, and not the case he just runs shit down either.

On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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post #11 of 62 (permalink) Old 01-11-2010, 07:18 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Topspin ≠ Defensive Rafa

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Originally Posted by Action Jackson View Post
Are you so clouded that you can't see why Nadal struggles against certain players on hardcourts. He doesn't get to hit many passing shots on the FH because most players when they approach to the backhand. Is it really that hard to see his time gets taken away on the hardcourt and when it's done properly he gets exposed.
Wow, good to see I'm clouded, at the same time, don't you notice that when the pressure is off him it's then that he reverts to defense, starts to get pushed around, and that's when the flat hitters can take his time away, otherwise, when he's aggressive, he's the one who takes away the flathitters' time.


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Hahaha, you base it on one match and not since his senior career from 2003.
No. Also last season after he won the AO (mostly with aggressive game), he felt comfy and by the clay season he was back 1000 miles behind the baseline which cost him a lot.

It's a recurring pattern in Nadal's game (either in a match, season whatever) that when he thinks the pressure is off him he starts to play too defensively.

Hahaha
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post #12 of 62 (permalink) Old 01-11-2010, 07:35 AM
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Re: Topspin ≠ Defensive Rafa

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Originally Posted by Nekromanta View Post
Wow, good to see I'm clouded, at the same time, don't you notice that when the pressure is off him it's then that he reverts to defense, starts to get pushed around, and that's when the flat hitters can take his time away, otherwise, when he's aggressive, he's the one who takes away the flathitters' time.
Well you are making out that Nadal is an all out aggressive player and it's not the case. Neither is he someone who just moonballs for the sake of it. In other words it depends on the situation, his defensive skills are outstanding and are always going to overshadow his other excellent qualities.

Yes, when David Ferrer schooled him at the US Open the pressure was off him and he kept getting pushed back further and further behind. Davydenko doesn't exactly have many problems with Nadal's speed of shot on hardcourts. If Nadal was so aggressive and never retreated from the baseline when he was getting beaten up by the mentioned players, then what was he doing in defensive positions.

Quote:
No. Also last season after he won the AO (mostly with aggressive game), he felt comfy and by the clay season he was back 1000 miles behind the baseline which cost him a lot.

It's a recurring pattern in Nadal's game (either in a match, season whatever) that when he thinks the pressure is off him he starts to play too defensively.

Hahaha
Is it? Nadal on clay he is so far ahead of the field and paseo summed it up. The surface where he needs to be the most aggressive is the one he struggles on the most and it's obvious as to why certain players can beat him on hardcourts.

He was so aggressive at the London Masters Cup.

On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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post #13 of 62 (permalink) Old 01-11-2010, 07:37 AM
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Re: Topspin ≠ Defensive Rafa

i'd just like to add to this topic that at his peak Federer's forehand had more top spin than Bruguera

NAdal's technique is very inefficient, you have to factor in the lefty advantage and during his prime he was very muscular, hit harder and had great speed and was natural on clay

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post #14 of 62 (permalink) Old 01-11-2010, 07:52 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Topspin ≠ Defensive Rafa

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Well you are making out that Nadal is an all out aggressive player and it's not the case.
Nah, my point is that Nadal is awesome when he plays aggressively, but unfortunately he too often starts to play defensive clay court tennis in the worst possible moments / periods, etc.
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post #15 of 62 (permalink) Old 01-11-2010, 08:33 AM
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Re: Topspin ≠ Defensive Rafa

Rafito was standing ON the baseline throughout the 6-0 davey set, then after that he reverted back to way behind baseline, so his new aggressive tactics are working, but it isn't his instinct yet, that'll change
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