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post #1 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-11-2009, 04:06 PM Thread Starter
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GS ATP ranking points vs MS ATP ranking points

To me something should be highlighted in the ranking point system..

So, let's see: does GS rewarding points are truly worthy 2X MS ranking points??? (2000 ATP points for the GS titlist against 1000 ATP points for MS titlist)


1. In a GS a player (an ATP player) must make 3 wins to go to the next level. In MS he needs 2 wins only.

2. In a GS a title winner needs 7 wins versus 6 wins in MS.

3. I na GS those 7 wins occur in a 2 week time frame, in MS everything (6 mathes) is is to be done within one week.

4. that 7th match for the GS titlist is actually a first round R64 wich is against a low ranked players (128 +).

Everything else is the same.

So, again: does 2000 ATP ranking points for a titlist GS events against 1000 ATP points for a titlist at MS events truly reflect the difference in the effort and skills?? In another words: is the difference between the two categories doubled?

I appreciate any input. Thanks.
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post #2 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-11-2009, 04:12 PM
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Re: GS ATP ranking points vs MS ATP ranking points

It's not simply a question of "effort". GS are much more prestigious than any MS title, way more prize money, bigger viewership, more history/tradition etc... The motivation behind winning one is on another level to a MS. Physical effort is never a constant between tournaments and should hardly come into it. I mean, is there more effort required to win Monte Carlo than Estoril? Not necessarily, but that doesn't mean both titles are of equal importance. But as you mentioned, a GS is played over a longer period, with more matches and with best of 5.

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post #3 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-11-2009, 04:26 PM Thread Starter
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Re: GS ATP ranking points vs MS ATP ranking points

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Originally Posted by rafa_maniac View Post
It's not simply a question of "effort".
well, then we will have lower quality of matches/tennis.

Quote:
GS are much more prestigious than any MS title, way more prize money, bigger viewership, more history/tradition etc...
isn't that "prestigious" thing measured by the "effort" too?
Besides, is that difference worthy as twice as much of ATP points??

Quote:
I mean, is there more effort required to win Monte Carlo than Estoril?
lol...that's a ridiculous compariosn. No further comment necessary here.
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post #4 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-11-2009, 04:33 PM
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Re: GS ATP ranking points vs MS ATP ranking points

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Originally Posted by w78dexon_y View Post
well, then we will have lower quality of matches/tennis.
How?

Quote:
isn't that "prestigious" thing measured by the "effort" too?
Not really, no. But there is more effort involved with winning a Slam.

Quote:
Besides, is that difference worthy as twice as much of ATP points??
Yes. If you were a player, would you trade 2 MS titles in for 1 Slam? If you can answer this question truthfully you'll realise why this is a stupid topic.

Quote:
lol...that's a ridiculous compariosn. No further comment necessary here.
Yes it is a stupid comparison, it also happens to be your argument. There is no difference in "effort" required to win the two events, so they should reward the same number of points, correct?

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post #5 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-11-2009, 04:37 PM Thread Starter
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Re: GS ATP ranking points vs MS ATP ranking points

The whole point here is to emphasize double GS vs MS ranking points. That "double" valued points will encourage the players to focus on GS only, go deep in it, either by luck or by hitting top form he was aiming to be just at that time - and then go slumpy again, till next GS.

While some other players can work really hard, keep top form throught the season, keep going deep into or winning Master Sries matches, yet, they'd be lower ranked that the first ones, just because their wrok was not rewarded as the work of so-called "GS" players.

The whole concern is: does the ranking system bring us lower quality of matches?
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post #6 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-11-2009, 04:43 PM
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Re: GS ATP ranking points vs MS ATP ranking points

Quote:
Originally Posted by w78dexon_y View Post
The whole point here is to emphasize double GS vs MS ranking points. That "double" valued points will encourage the players to focus on GS only, go deep in it, either by luck or by hitting top form he was aiming to be just at that time - and then go slumpy again, till next GS.

While some other players can work really hard, keep top form throught the season, keep going deep into or winning Master Sries matches, yet, they'd be lower ranked that the first ones, just because their wrok was not rewarded as the work of so-called "GS" players.

The whole concern is: does the ranking system bring us lower quality of matches?
We're not dealing with a 1:10 ratio here, it's half. MS are still very worthwhile tournaments. Murray is only defending one set of GS points higher than QF and yet is on the verge of taking #2. There are only 4 Slams and like it or not they are the tournaments that really matter to players and going far in them deserves a greater reward.

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post #7 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-11-2009, 04:48 PM Thread Starter
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Re: GS ATP ranking points vs MS ATP ranking points

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Originally Posted by rafa_maniac View Post
How??
the players are not motivated (no enough points for them!) to give their best in the matches that are not GS. And we have only 4 GS for the entire season!!


Quote:
Not really, no. But there is more effort involved with winning a Slam.
Right. And the question now is: is that effort as twice as big as to win MS??


Quote:
Yes. If you were a player, would you trade 2 MS titles in for 1 Slam? If you can answer this question truthfully you'll realise why this is a stupid topic.
That's a wrong approach to the issue. You missed the point here. I was talking about ranking points and not the title. (?) Now I can ask the similar question to you: would you trade three MS titles for one GS?? See, where we are going to now. You confused the issues.


Quote:
Yes it is a stupid comparison,
thank you. You admittance is appreciated. Then do not try to compare Estoril with Monte Carlo.
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post #8 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-11-2009, 04:52 PM
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Re: GS ATP ranking points vs MS ATP ranking points

To answer the question, you would have to explain what current players have too many/too much points from AMS.

I think doubling it is about right. Probably it's easier to get 2.000 points from AMS than from slams, but winning a slam is a reward in itself and you enter history just by making the final.

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post #9 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-11-2009, 04:56 PM Thread Starter
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Re: GS ATP ranking points vs MS ATP ranking points

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Originally Posted by rafa_maniac View Post
There are only 4 Slams and like it or not they are the tournaments that really matter to players.
right. What about the tennis fans? Is the game all about tennis players? Without enough public interest that game would go dead one day!! This is regardless how much (your) players enjoy it.

For instance: Rog made F,F,W,F in 4 GSs for the last season, lost everything else, including olipmic medal, (in singles), yet he is sitting at #2 just because of those GS efforts.

Well, look, I like to watch tennis more than just 4 times a year. And Federer's slumpy game is against what the true tennis fans like.

cheers.
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post #10 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-11-2009, 05:03 PM
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Re: GS ATP ranking points vs MS ATP ranking points

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Originally Posted by w78dexon_y View Post
the players are not motivated (no enough points for them!) to give their best in the matches that are not GS. And we have only 4 GS for the entire season!!
1000 points, hundreds of thousands of dollars and one of the second most presitigious level tournaments on the tour is not enough motivation? I think this might be a semi-valid argument if you were referring to 250 tournaments where the top players really do have limited motivation, but not MS.

Quote:
Right. And the question now is: is that effort as twice as big as to win MS??
No. Are you suggesting that all tournaments should award roughly the same number of points then, because they all take roughly the same amount of effort to win? Players aim to win Slams for more reasons than points, you are never going to change the fact that there is a greater motivation to win there than at MS. I don't see someone like Nadal having too much trouble finding motivation to do well outside of Slams aswell though, because they are professionals, and they always want to win.

Quote:
That's a wrong approach to the issue. You missed the point here. I was talking about ranking points and not the title. (?)
You're talking about motivation. Ranking points won't change this, and nor should they. Some tournaments are more important than others, period.

Quote:
would you trade three MS titles for one GS??
Maybe I would. Maybe GSs should be three times the points then? This is speculative. What I asked is actually relevant.

Quote:
thank you. You admittance is appreciated. Then do not try to compare Estoril with Monte Carlo.
Are you actually retarded? I'm not trying to compare them, and nor should anyone, just as you should not try to compare Monte Carlo with the French Open.

14.

Last edited by rafa_maniac; 05-11-2009 at 05:10 PM.
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post #11 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-11-2009, 05:03 PM Thread Starter
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Re: GS ATP ranking points vs MS ATP ranking points

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Originally Posted by Bazooka View Post
To answer the question, you would have to explain what current players have too many/too much points from AMS.
sorry didn't quite understood this one.

.
Quote:
........but winning a slam is a reward in itself and you enter history just by making the final.
true. Regarding the players prospective. But what about us, tennis fans?? Do, I really care how much winning a slam rewards Rafa, Djoker, Rog??? They aint paying my bills!

If no one wants to come to watch slumpy games anymore, the areans would go empty. The TV stations would stop broadcasting any matches. And the money would start to flow out of the tennis. And one day, the players would finally said: "hey, damn, I won that GS, but come back home broke. Next time I don't wanna play it. Glory is fine, but en empty stomack bothers me 24/7!!".

I have exagerrated a bit, just to explain my point.
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post #12 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-11-2009, 05:05 PM
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Re: GS ATP ranking points vs MS ATP ranking points

Quote:
Originally Posted by w78dexon_y View Post
right. What about the tennis fans? Is the game all about tennis players? Without enough public interest that game would go dead one day!! This is regardless how much (your) players enjoy it.

For instance: Rog made F,F,W,F in 4 GSs for the last season, lost everything else, including olipmic medal, (in singles), yet he is sitting at #2 just because of those GS efforts.

Well, look, I like to watch tennis more than just 4 times a year. And Federer's slumpy game is against what the true tennis fans like.

cheers.

If this is purely about Federer, he's an anomoly, doing as well as he is in Slams and as "poorly" in MS events. Besides, he's still making it deep at the majority of MS and losing to the other top players, just like at Slams.

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post #13 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-11-2009, 05:08 PM
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Re: GS ATP ranking points vs MS ATP ranking points

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Originally Posted by w78dexon_y View Post
true. Regarding the players prospective. But what about us, tennis fans?? Do, I really care how much winning a slam rewards Rafa, Djoker, Rog??? They aint paying my bills!.
If you are a true tennis fan you would definately care enough about the game to appreciate a player's performance in a GS above any other tournament.

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post #14 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-11-2009, 05:08 PM
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Re: GS ATP ranking points vs MS ATP ranking points

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Originally Posted by rafa_maniac View Post
If this is purely about Federer, he's an anomoly, doing as well as he is in Slams and as "poorly" in MS events. Besides, he's still making it deep at the majority of MS and losing to the other top players, just like at Slams.
Did you have any doubts that OP meant to do anything else with this thread than 'proving' that Fed's #2 position is unjustified?

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post #15 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-11-2009, 05:09 PM
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Re: GS ATP ranking points vs MS ATP ranking points

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Originally Posted by w78dexon_y View Post
In another words: is the difference between the two categories doubled?
At the very least.

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Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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