The GOAT discussions Thread - Page 281 - MensTennisForums.com

View Poll Results: Should the GOAT argument be only a question of numbers?
Yes. 97 32.33%
Other factors (like competition and style of play) should be considered. 203 67.67%
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post #4201 of 5143 (permalink) Old 08-14-2012, 11:50 PM
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Re: is djokovic qualified to be n the GOAT discussion

I fail to see how 10 GSs (even with a CYGS) can challenge 17 GSs - especially with Fed's weeks at #1 and other records (consecutive SFs and QFs). It's just nowhere close - after all, Fed himself was 1 match away from a CYGS TWICE.
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post #4202 of 5143 (permalink) Old 08-14-2012, 11:53 PM
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Re: is djokovic qualified to be n the GOAT discussion

It's too soon. Maybe in 3 years if he manages to get to double digits slams. However, if he achieves the calendar grand slam then he can be in the discussion.
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post #4203 of 5143 (permalink) Old 08-15-2012, 12:18 AM
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Re: is djokovic qualified to be n the GOAT discussion

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Originally Posted by Greatness View Post
It's too soon. Maybe in 3 years if he manages to get to double digits slams. However, if he achieves the calendar grand slam then he can be in the discussion.
So you think that achieving the CYGS with the 5 GSs he has now qualifies him for GOAT discussion - that's 9 GS - slightly less than 1/2 of Fed's 17? Nole's still got a long way to go.

In the Open era, it's been difficult for players who win 3 GS in a year to follow up the next year. Look at Connors, Wilander, Nadal - all had subpar year after their 3 GS year. Nole? Well, that remains to be seen. He's got 1, possibly 2 (USO) so he would not fit this mold. But it's extremely difficult to maintain that level of intensity to follow up (except Fed, of course, who did it 3 times).
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post #4204 of 5143 (permalink) Old 08-15-2012, 12:19 AM
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Re: is djokovic qualified to be n the GOAT discussion

No.
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post #4205 of 5143 (permalink) Old 08-15-2012, 12:51 AM
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Re: is djokovic qualified to be n the GOAT discussion

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Originally Posted by Sophocles View Post
If you're playing in the Open Era - when particularly from mid-'80s on there are no professional or political reasons for missing slams - and other Open Era greats have won 10+ slams, and slams are by far the most important measure of greatness in the sport, then it is a prima facie conclusion that you do indeed need at least 10 slams to be in the GOAT discussion. This is effectively a fact, & it is a philosophical mistake to imagine that a fact must be proved beyond any shadow of doubt. Applying that criterion, there would be no facts (except perhaps in logic & mathematics), so whether a claim was a fact would be irrelevant.

If you are disputing the natural prima facie conclusion that as an Open-Era player you need 10+ slams to be in the GOAT discussion, it is your job to state what other achievements would make up for this relative deficiency.
Good post. It's amazing what an education in politics and philosophy can do.

I'm still waiting for that 555 guy's response to this...
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post #4206 of 5143 (permalink) Old 08-15-2012, 03:31 AM
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Re: is djokovic qualified to be n the GOAT discussion

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Good post. It's amazing what an education in politics and philosophy can do.

I'm still waiting for that 555 guy's response to this...
Why wait for his response? Just refer to his last 50 posts.

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post #4207 of 5143 (permalink) Old 08-15-2012, 04:36 AM
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Re: is djokovic qualified to be n the GOAT discussion

LOL ofcourse not
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post #4208 of 5143 (permalink) Old 08-15-2012, 06:42 AM
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Re: is djokovic qualified to be n the GOAT discussion

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Good post. It's amazing what an education in politics and philosophy can do.

I'm still waiting for that 555 guy's response to this...
Why? I can give it for it.

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post #4209 of 5143 (permalink) Old 08-15-2012, 12:35 PM
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Re: is djokovic qualified to be n the GOAT discussion

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To do what? Not to be in the GOAT discussion. For that he has do do something better than Federer. Agassi is not in the GOAT discussion.
Agree.
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post #4210 of 5143 (permalink) Old 08-15-2012, 12:51 PM
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Re: is djokovic qualified to be n the GOAT discussion

As a true Novak fan (not a tard) who first saw him as a skinny 14 year old playing tennis few blocks from my house and followed him ever since...no, he is NOT qualified for a GOAT discussion. Am I happy what he achieved already? Yeah I am. Winning a slam and getting to #1 were my highest expectations. He already went further than that.
And no one knows what future holds. Fed is not getting younger, his true decline is looming and will happen soon, it's inevitable. Nadal is probably going to be a threat on clay only from now on, if he recovers fully (I hope so, being one of main rivals of Novak he's still a legend no matter what haters say and I hope he will be back). It's highly probable that soon Novak, Andy and maybe Delpo will be the ones racking every slam in next 3-4 years. Younger players are not showing any promise atm and with player aging being offset with technology/nutrition/treatments that were sci-fi only 10 years ago who knows for how long that period might last.
That said to enter GOAT discussion he would have to get into 12+ slam region with getting CYGS or some amazing record, or to get near 17 slams. Will he get close to "GOAT dicussion region"? If he keeps his level and stay free from injuries it might be a distinct possibility unless some young prodigy comes along and at the moment there's no one on horizon.
Me as a fan would be extremely happy if he gets 8+, and even if he stays where he is right now it's already more then I ever remotely hoped for so I can just watch and enjoy the ride.

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post #4211 of 5143 (permalink) Old 08-15-2012, 02:20 PM
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Re: is djokovic qualified to be n the GOAT discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophocles View Post
If you're playing in the Open Era - when particularly from mid-'80s on there are no professional or political reasons for missing slams - and other Open Era greats have won 10+ slams, and slams are by far the most important measure of greatness in the sport, then it is a prima facie conclusion that you do indeed need at least 10 slams to be in the GOAT discussion. This is effectively a fact, & it is a philosophical mistake to imagine that a fact must be proved beyond any shadow of doubt. Applying that criterion, there would be no facts (except perhaps in logic & mathematics), so whether a claim was a fact would be irrelevant.

If you are disputing the natural prima facie conclusion that as an Open-Era player you need 10+ slams to be in the GOAT discussion, it is your job to state what other achievements would make up for this relative deficiency.
Obviously, you do not know the difference between fact and opinion. A fact is a statement that can be proven true or false. An opinion is an expression of a person’s feelings that can not be proven. The GOAT discussion is matter of opinion because, for example, it includes debate about level of competition which can not be proven true or false.

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Is this a fact?
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Do you have any proof that he lost the argument?
When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on the person making an allegation of fact. Andy1402 made an allegation of fact but failed to provide proof.

Last edited by Alaricus; 08-15-2012 at 03:39 PM.
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post #4212 of 5143 (permalink) Old 08-15-2012, 02:26 PM
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Re: is djokovic qualified to be n the GOAT discussion

Ofc he is. The GOAT is the guy who has most wins against Nadal, so Novak IS the GOAT! /thread.

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post #4213 of 5143 (permalink) Old 08-15-2012, 02:59 PM
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Re: is djokovic qualified to be n the GOAT discussion

Novak will have a harder time being GOAT. That nadull. Nadull still has a CLAY heavy h2h advantage over federer that would have importance if they both end up on 17 and nadull had GS on other surfaces. IMO nadull would have a strong case.
Novak doesn't have that luxury . So he will have to surpass Feds slam count with the FO.

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post #4214 of 5143 (permalink) Old 08-15-2012, 03:46 PM
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Re: is djokovic qualified to be n the GOAT discussion

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Originally Posted by uxyzapenje View Post
Ofc he is. The GOAT is the guy who has most wins against Nadal, so Novak IS the GOAT! /thread.

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post #4215 of 5143 (permalink) Old 08-15-2012, 05:07 PM
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Re: is djokovic qualified to be n the GOAT discussion

If he'd won the French Open this year, then he would have had a case. Now he'll need either 10 more slams or 4 slams in a row to be in the mix again.
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