Top 6 players -- 5-year episodes in comparison since 1970 - MensTennisForums.com
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post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-08-2008, 09:04 PM Thread Starter
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Top 6 players -- 5-year episodes in comparison since 1970

Here is a little statistic that may be helpful in comparing "eras". I divided time into 5-year episodes from 1970. I then allocated 4 points to a grand slam win, 3 to a final, 2 to a SF, and 1 to a QF, and summed the scores up over time. Here are the top 6 in terms of points for each espisode (obviously a broad brush)

To me the current episode seems one of the stronger ones, although the strongest by far is 1985-89.

2005-08 (episode obviously not complete)

1 Federer 54 (assuming he wins tonight, otherwise 53)
2 Nadal 32
3 Djokovic 16
4 Roddick 13
5 Davydenko 12
6 Hewitt 9

2000-04

1 Agassi 28
2 Hewitt 19
3 Federer 18
4 Ferrero 17
5 Sampras 16
5 Safin 16

1995-99

1 Sampras 37
2 Agassi 25
3 Chang 16
3 Kafelnikov 16
5 Rafter 12
6 Becker 10
6 Pioline 10

1990-94

1 Edberg 32
1 Courier 32
3 Sampras 31
4 Becker 22
5 Agassi 20
6 Stich 15

1985-89

1 Lendl 50
2 Wilander 31
3 Edberg 28
4 Becker 26
5 Mecir 13
5 Connors 13

1980-84

1 McEnroe 39
2 Connors 32
3 Lendl 25
4 Borg 21
5 Wilander 19
6 Kriek 15

1975-79

1 Borg 39
2 Connors 33
2 Vilas 33
4 Gerulaitis 16
5 Tanner 13
6 Ramirez 11

1970-74

1 Rosewall 25
2 Newcombe 24
3 Kodes 23
4 Smith 20
5 Nastase 16
5 Ashe 16

www.yokozunatennis.blogspot.com

Current sanyaku ranked players:
Yokozuna: Rafael Nadal (Dai-Y), Andy Murray, Novak Djokovic (Dai-Y), Roger Federer (Dai-Y)
Ozeki: Stan Wawrinka
Sekiwake: -
Komusubi
:
Milos Raonic (ex-Sekiwake), Dominic Thiem, Kei Nishikori (ex-Sekiwake)

Active ex-sanyaku-ranked players
Ozeki:
Berdych, Cilic, Del Potro, Ferrer. Sekiwake: Baghdatis, Haas, Gasquet, Tsonga. Komusubi: Dimitrov, Gulbis, Janowicz, Kyrgios, Melzer, Pouille, Robredo, Verdasco, Youzhny.

Last edited by Henry Kaspar; 09-09-2008 at 01:26 PM.
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post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-08-2008, 09:18 PM
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Re: Top 6 players -- 5-year tennis episodes in comparison since 1970

Thanks !! Very interesting

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post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-08-2008, 10:49 PM
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Re: Top 6 players -- 5-year tennis episodes in comparison since 1970

It's new to me that the gap between the top 5 players and the rest has anything do with "strength" of an era. I mean, I could see a possible justification, but I could also see a justification for the exact opposite.
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post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-08-2008, 11:10 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Top 6 players -- 5-year tennis episodes in comparison since 1970

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Originally Posted by LuckyAC View Post
It's new to me that the gap between the top 5 players and the rest has anything do with "strength" of an era. I mean, I could see a possible justification, but I could also see a justification for the exact opposite.
Not sure what you are talking about.

www.yokozunatennis.blogspot.com

Current sanyaku ranked players:
Yokozuna: Rafael Nadal (Dai-Y), Andy Murray, Novak Djokovic (Dai-Y), Roger Federer (Dai-Y)
Ozeki: Stan Wawrinka
Sekiwake: -
Komusubi
:
Milos Raonic (ex-Sekiwake), Dominic Thiem, Kei Nishikori (ex-Sekiwake)

Active ex-sanyaku-ranked players
Ozeki:
Berdych, Cilic, Del Potro, Ferrer. Sekiwake: Baghdatis, Haas, Gasquet, Tsonga. Komusubi: Dimitrov, Gulbis, Janowicz, Kyrgios, Melzer, Pouille, Robredo, Verdasco, Youzhny.
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post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-08-2008, 11:14 PM
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Re: Top 6 players -- 5-year tennis episodes in comparison since 1970

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Not sure what you are talking about.
Well, maybe I don't know what you are trying to say, but I thought you were saying there is a connection between those numbers you listed and how strong the era is.
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post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-08-2008, 11:15 PM
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Re: Top 6 players -- 5-year tennis episodes in comparison since 1970

Good job mate, but the only thing you can prove with this is weather there were dominant players or not in that period of time.
Some could say that it is easier to be dominant in a poor era, so the current would be worst than the previous.
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post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-08-2008, 11:18 PM
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Re: Top 6 players -- 5-year tennis episodes in comparison since 1970

This doesn't compare eras, just shows how consistent top players are at reaching the late stages of slams.

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post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-08-2008, 11:20 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Top 6 players -- 5-year tennis episodes in comparison since 1970

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This doesn't compare eras, just shows how consistent top players are at reaching the late stages of slams.
Exactly. It's meant to help compare eras, not compare them itself.

www.yokozunatennis.blogspot.com

Current sanyaku ranked players:
Yokozuna: Rafael Nadal (Dai-Y), Andy Murray, Novak Djokovic (Dai-Y), Roger Federer (Dai-Y)
Ozeki: Stan Wawrinka
Sekiwake: -
Komusubi
:
Milos Raonic (ex-Sekiwake), Dominic Thiem, Kei Nishikori (ex-Sekiwake)

Active ex-sanyaku-ranked players
Ozeki:
Berdych, Cilic, Del Potro, Ferrer. Sekiwake: Baghdatis, Haas, Gasquet, Tsonga. Komusubi: Dimitrov, Gulbis, Janowicz, Kyrgios, Melzer, Pouille, Robredo, Verdasco, Youzhny.
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post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-08-2008, 11:25 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Top 6 players -- 5-year tennis episodes in comparison since 1970

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Originally Posted by LuckyAC View Post
Well, maybe I don't know what you are trying to say, but I thought you were saying there is a connection between those numbers you listed and how strong the era is.
Not really, the idea is just to figure out in some systematic way who the dominant players were, and how they faired relative to one another. I'd take prime Federer-Nadal-Djokovic-Roddick over old Agassi-Hewitt-young Federer-Ferrero, for example. But not over Lendl-Wilander-Edberg-Becker. The depth and intensity of the 85-89 episode was quite something.

www.yokozunatennis.blogspot.com

Current sanyaku ranked players:
Yokozuna: Rafael Nadal (Dai-Y), Andy Murray, Novak Djokovic (Dai-Y), Roger Federer (Dai-Y)
Ozeki: Stan Wawrinka
Sekiwake: -
Komusubi
:
Milos Raonic (ex-Sekiwake), Dominic Thiem, Kei Nishikori (ex-Sekiwake)

Active ex-sanyaku-ranked players
Ozeki:
Berdych, Cilic, Del Potro, Ferrer. Sekiwake: Baghdatis, Haas, Gasquet, Tsonga. Komusubi: Dimitrov, Gulbis, Janowicz, Kyrgios, Melzer, Pouille, Robredo, Verdasco, Youzhny.
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post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-09-2008, 01:26 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Top 6 players -- 5-year tennis episodes in comparison since 1970

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Originally Posted by Henry Kaspar View Post
Not really, the idea is just to figure out in some systematic way who the dominant players were, and how they faired relative to one another. I'd take prime Federer-Nadal-Djokovic-Roddick over old Agassi-Hewitt-young Federer-Ferrero, for example. But not over Lendl-Wilander-Edberg-Becker. The depth and intensity of the 85-89 episode was quite something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyAC View Post
Well, maybe I don't know what you are trying to say, but I thought you were saying there is a connection between those numbers you listed and how strong the era is.
Here is an attempt to add some interpretation.

What could make a great era? Three things come to my mind:

-- An outstanding champion
-- A great rivalry
-- Great depth of competition.

Now say a dominant champion is one who made at least 40 points over a 5-year period -- reduce this a little to, say, 35 before the mid-80s, when many players skipped the Aussie Open. Episodes that qualify are 05-08 (Federer), 85-89 (Lendl), 80-84 (McEnroe), and 75-79 (Borg). 95-99 (Sampras) is close.

Say a great rivalry is an episode where at least two players scored 30 points or more. Episodes that qualify are 05-08 (Federer, Nadal), 90-94 (three-way rivalry of Edberg, Courier, Sampras), 85-89 (Lendl, Wilander), 80-84 (McEnroe, Connors), 75-79 (three-way rivalry of Borg, Connors, Vilas). 95-99 (Sampras, Agassi) is close.

Finally, say great depth existed when at least four players scored more than 20 points. Periods that qualify are 90-94 (5 players: Edberg, Courier, Sampras, Becker, Agassi), 85-89 (Lendl, Wilander, Edberg, Becker), 80-84 (McEnroe, Connors, Lendl, Borg), and 70-74 (Rosewall, Newcombe, Kodes, Smith). 05-09 could still make it but it's unlikely. 75-79 could be added in as again scores are lower because of the poorly attended Aussie Open.

-- two episodes score as "great" on all three scores: 80-84 and 85-89. These years had it all.
- three episodes score as "great" on two scores: 05-08, 90-94, 75-79.
- one episode scores as "great" on one score: 70-74
- and two episodes score as "great" on no score whatsoever: 00-04 and 95-99. 95-99 is closer to "greatness" on most scores than 00-04, however.

If so, tennis is in a new exciting age after a period of relative draught -- and this pretty much how I see it.

www.yokozunatennis.blogspot.com

Current sanyaku ranked players:
Yokozuna: Rafael Nadal (Dai-Y), Andy Murray, Novak Djokovic (Dai-Y), Roger Federer (Dai-Y)
Ozeki: Stan Wawrinka
Sekiwake: -
Komusubi
:
Milos Raonic (ex-Sekiwake), Dominic Thiem, Kei Nishikori (ex-Sekiwake)

Active ex-sanyaku-ranked players
Ozeki:
Berdych, Cilic, Del Potro, Ferrer. Sekiwake: Baghdatis, Haas, Gasquet, Tsonga. Komusubi: Dimitrov, Gulbis, Janowicz, Kyrgios, Melzer, Pouille, Robredo, Verdasco, Youzhny.

Last edited by Henry Kaspar; 09-09-2008 at 05:17 PM.
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post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-09-2008, 01:28 PM
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Re: Top 6 players -- 5-year episodes in comparison since 1970

Agreed. Affirmative. Tennis is entering a golden era.
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post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-09-2008, 05:07 PM
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Re: Top 6 players -- 5-year episodes in comparison since 1970

Meh. Considering the Australian wasn't played by the top players until between the early 70s and 1983 this doesn't offer any generalizable or in any way helpful information.

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post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-09-2008, 05:15 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Top 6 players -- 5-year episodes in comparison since 1970

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Meh. Considering the Australian wasn't played by the top players until between the early 70s and 1983 this doesn't offer any generalizable or in any way helpful information.
How is that?

www.yokozunatennis.blogspot.com

Current sanyaku ranked players:
Yokozuna: Rafael Nadal (Dai-Y), Andy Murray, Novak Djokovic (Dai-Y), Roger Federer (Dai-Y)
Ozeki: Stan Wawrinka
Sekiwake: -
Komusubi
:
Milos Raonic (ex-Sekiwake), Dominic Thiem, Kei Nishikori (ex-Sekiwake)

Active ex-sanyaku-ranked players
Ozeki:
Berdych, Cilic, Del Potro, Ferrer. Sekiwake: Baghdatis, Haas, Gasquet, Tsonga. Komusubi: Dimitrov, Gulbis, Janowicz, Kyrgios, Melzer, Pouille, Robredo, Verdasco, Youzhny.
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post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-09-2008, 05:19 PM
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Re: Top 6 players -- 5-year episodes in comparison since 1970

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How is that?
The numbers are off for reasons already explained. Hence comparisons between eras are flawed. The fragments are also arbitrary (eg. begin in 1970 - why not 1971?)

What would be a lot more interesting is to compare the best five years of some of the greatest players ever, but doing that by assigning quantitative value for grand slam results also wouldn't work.

'This isn't right. This isn't even wrong'.
- Wolfgang Pauli upon seeing a paper by a young physicist

'A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.'
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post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-09-2008, 05:22 PM
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Re: Top 6 players -- 5-year episodes in comparison since 1970

There was this one fellow on another board who calculated ELO rankings (normally used for chess) for the greatest players ever and had some interesting results. Now that was useful.

'This isn't right. This isn't even wrong'.
- Wolfgang Pauli upon seeing a paper by a young physicist

'A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.'
- Bertrand Russell
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