Success at GS tournaments -- for how much of a player's LT standing do they account? - MensTennisForums.com

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post #1 of 45 (permalink) Old 08-04-2008, 06:30 PM Thread Starter
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Success at GS tournaments -- for how much of a player's LT standing do they account?

A question one is necessarily confronted with when trying to compare player's careers.

My view is that successes at GS tournaments account for at least 80 percent of a player's long-term standing. Davis Cup successes matter a little but far less. As do successes at the end-year Masters, or at tournamets of the ATP Masters series (who ever counts how many ATP tournaments Sampras won? It's the 14 slams that matter). Also Olympics add a little, but not terribly much too (Steffi Graf isn't famous for her Olympics gold medal).

Dissenting views?

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post #2 of 45 (permalink) Old 08-04-2008, 07:50 PM
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Re: Success at GS tournaments -- for how much of a player's LT standing do they accou

Generally the less clued up the person is about tennis the more emphasis is placed on Grand Slams results. 95% of the world population that has seen a tennis match on TV believes there are no other tournaments other than Grand Slams.


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post #3 of 45 (permalink) Old 08-04-2008, 07:59 PM
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Re: Success at GS tournaments -- for how much of a player's LT standing do they accou

Performance at slams as a predictive factor for someone's long term career makes sense.

But I don't think the slams in are themselves equal in this sense, because some slams have produced more 1 slam wonders than others.
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post #4 of 45 (permalink) Old 08-04-2008, 08:00 PM
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Re: Success at GS tournaments -- for how much of a player's LT standing do they accou

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Originally Posted by Henry Kaspar View Post
(who ever counts how many ATP tournaments Sampras won?
64

17 (yes, yes, yes!) Slams! And counting....
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post #5 of 45 (permalink) Old 08-04-2008, 08:02 PM
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Re: Success at GS tournaments -- for how much of a player's LT standing do they accou

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Kaspar View Post
A question one is necessarily confronted with when trying to compare player's careers.

My view is that successes at GS tournaments account for at least 80 percent of a player's long-term standing. Davis Cup successes matter a little but far less. As do successes at the end-year Masters, or at tournamets of the ATP Masters series (who ever counts how many ATP tournaments Sampras won? It's the 14 slams that matter). Also Olympics add a little, but not terribly much too (Steffi Graf isn't famous for her Olympics gold medal).

Dissenting views?
Steffi Graf IS famous for her Olympic gold medal, as she is known to have won the GOLDEN slam, which was only possible by winning the gold medal.

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post #6 of 45 (permalink) Old 08-05-2008, 02:42 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Success at GS tournaments -- for how much of a player's LT standing do they accou

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Steffi Graf IS famous for her Olympic gold medal, as she is known to have won the GOLDEN slam, which was only possible by winning the gold medal.
Maybe as a little icing on the cake, but the cake are her 22 GS titles. With the exception of Graf and Agassi, I for my part couldn't name any Olympic tennis gold medal winners without googling -- and these two only because they made for a "golden' (career) slam. By contrast, I probably could tell you correctly most Wimbledon winners of the open era.

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post #7 of 45 (permalink) Old 08-05-2008, 03:20 AM
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Re: Success at GS tournaments -- for how much of a player's LT standing do they accou

i think the olympics matter a bit... but... i think only if u have a gs under you belt or even further, have won one that year... massu was just... bullsh!t... wtf...?!

olympic gold defines mecir's career perhaps... and the golden slam by graf is simply historical...

the atp finals... or wct finals... have had some all time great battles.... highlighted best perhaps by becker vs sampras in the 90's... it carries some weight no doubt...

i agree... slams are where you'd look for greatness in 75-95% of cases depending on which country u live in or come from...

lendl once said of the davis cup: 'no one cares about the davis cup unless ur the team in the final or australia...' fukn pr!ck...

but... davis cup has some pretty big significance these days now the its the only chance at legacy for some 1 slam wonders...

davis cup i would say is bigger than it was say 10 years back... but not 30...

all imho of course...

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post #8 of 45 (permalink) Old 08-05-2008, 08:32 AM
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Re: Success at GS tournaments -- for how much of a player's LT standing do they accou

For me personally if we are go in terms of percentages then I'd probably go GS 35%, Masters Series + Cup 35%, DC 20% and tour events 10% although because grass has no proper season I value Queens and Halle and players achievements there more than other tour events.
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post #9 of 45 (permalink) Old 08-05-2008, 08:35 AM
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Re: Success at GS tournaments -- for how much of a player's LT standing do they accou

GS events do carry a higher weight, if they didn't, then there wouldn't be Grand Slams and then all tournaments would be the same.

As for weighting, well it's irrelevant really. I mean Rios won all 3 TMS events on clay, a feat Lendl, Kuerten and Nadal have done, but what happens is they remember the other 3 for winning Slams.

On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

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I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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post #10 of 45 (permalink) Old 08-05-2008, 08:40 AM
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Re: Success at GS tournaments -- for how much of a player's LT standing do they accou

Yeah while I said that I value MS and GS events equal when judging a players career the slams do carry more weight in terms of value.. why?.. because that's just the way it is.
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post #11 of 45 (permalink) Old 08-05-2008, 08:43 AM
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Re: Success at GS tournaments -- for how much of a player's LT standing do they accou

Kafelnikov winning 2 GS titles and no TMS events, well I know what's of higher value and it's not an issue he never won one, but it counts against that Rios only #1 never to win a GS.

On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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post #12 of 45 (permalink) Old 08-05-2008, 03:29 PM
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Re: Success at GS tournaments -- for how much of a player's LT standing do they accou

...
...
obviously winning a Slam is the ultimate achievement for a tennis player~~ something they all strive for & a crowning moment!! *i`m sure none of the players dream of winning Cincinati or Hamburg<> at the end of the day they all hope that somehow they may taste Slam success!


#Pat Rafter only won 11 singles titles but 2 of them were Slams, & he came so close to winning another 3 [Wimby 00-01 & AO 01]. Marcelo Rios won 18 titles but no Slams. Also Rios had a longer run @ #1, won more Masters Series, was more talented & won more prizemoney than Rafter. However, who do you think will go down as the greater player... obviously Rafter is respected more!

#Gaston Gaudio & Mark Philippousis are more difficult to split: Gaudio won a Slam, but Philippoussis reached 2 Slam finals & helped AUS win 2 Davis Cup finals. also the `Scud` had a more spectacular game & infamous play boy/ bad boy image. Probably Philippoussis will be remembered more than Gaudio~~ who seemed to epitomise the harsh term `one slam wonder`!
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post #13 of 45 (permalink) Old 08-05-2008, 03:46 PM
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Re: Success at GS tournaments -- for how much of a player's LT standing do they accou

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned years as year end #1 yet because I think that would be my second most important factor behind Grand Slam success. Let's say that Federer is not able to get year end #1 again but does pick up 2 more Slams. I would rank Sampras over him because he was year end #1 six years while Fed was only year end #1 for four years. It's the same reason I rank Edberg higher than Becker (2 years as year end #1 vs. 0).
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post #14 of 45 (permalink) Old 08-05-2008, 03:56 PM
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Re: Success at GS tournaments -- for how much of a player's LT standing do they accou

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I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned years as year end #1 yet because I think that would be my second most important factor behind Grand Slam success. Let's say that Federer is not able to get year end #1 again but does pick up 2 more Slams. I would rank Sampras over him because he was year end #1 six years while Fed was only year end #1 for four years. It's the same reason I rank Edberg higher than Becker (2 years as year end #1 vs. 0).

*I disagree
...
Edberg & Becker both won 6 slams but Becker won quite a few more titles overall, plus he was the youngest ever Wimbledon champion, & had the adv over Edberg in H2H

Also consider longevity [between 1st & last GS wins]:
#Becker`s 1st slam 1985 Wimby, & last slam 1996 AO:: = 11 years
#Edbert`s 1st slam 1985 AO, & last slam 1992 USO:: = 7 years.
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post #15 of 45 (permalink) Old 08-05-2008, 03:59 PM
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Re: Success at GS tournaments -- for how much of a player's LT standing do they accou

Year end #1 is very overrated imo, it's a nice stat to have but it's basically the same thing as being #1 in the ranking at any other point in the year, the rankings consist of the same set of tournaments with the one difference being that for year end the tournaments are within the same calender year and during the rest of the year is the past 52 weeks but not all tournaments are in the same calender year. I think that total weeks spent at #1 has more significance that number of year end #1's
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