The Federer Decline Thread - Page 31 - MensTennisForums.com

View Poll Results: Do you agree with Pete?
No. I think Federer's decline is a fact and he's not winning any major in the future. 39 17.57%
I kinda agree... He's in a great moment, but the other 2 guys are too good. No more slams for Feddy 45 20.27%
I totally agree. Fed's still playing great tennis and he'll probably win another major 105 47.30%
Hello. I'm Rod Laver and my records are intact. Suck it losers. 33 14.86%
Voters: 222. You may not vote on this poll

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post #451 of 1591 (permalink) Old 05-23-2012, 11:04 PM
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Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

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Originally Posted by shanks View Post
Only a blind person will agree with you. How can a 30/31 year old athlete be on the same level with a 24/25 year old athlete?? Its basic common sense and logic. Stop talking in an irrational way. Its impossible to win an argument with an irrational person. You cannot wake up a person who is pretending to be asleep. Of course, Rafa & Novak are fantastic players. How does that prove that Federer has not declined?
Only a pretentious person starts an argument assuming his point is more valid than that of others.
I have said several times that Federer's movement has declined.

How many 24/25 year old were beating Sampras, Agassi and now Federer consistently? Do you watch other sports than tennis? You know Michael Jordan won 3 championships and multiple MVP awards in his early thirties? Did you know that 39 year old Jordan scored 51 points in a game? How many young, super athletic basketball players manage that in today's league? When you're fucking good, you're fucking good.

Players make adjustments because they know they won't be young forever, they become less reliant on their athletic ability and improve other parts of their game; they become more crafty with their shot selection or become more decisive when hitting shots, take the ball early etc. Simply saying he's older that's why he's losing is an insult to the fine players who have worked very hard to surpass him in some areas of the game.


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I have seen his matches since 2001. I feel his backhand has improved over the years. Even his serve has declined. His forehand is not the same. Of course his movement is slower now. He is still a pretty good player but cannot compete with Rafa & Novak on daily basis on the same level. He used to beat Rafa regularly before outside clay till 2008. Till US Open 2010, He used to beat Novak as well at the Grand Slams (except Aus Open 2008) Now you will tell me, Federer was in his prime then and Novak & Rafa were too young. This argument can go on forever. I do not see any point
Your argument holds very little weight because young Rafa was still handing breadsticks to Federer in his prime. Why is it so hard to accept that people improve their skills and find a way to win against players who used to dominate? The argument can go on forever but so far, your argument is only based on "he's old, that's why he losing"; 32 year old Agassi beat 21 year old number 1 Hewitt in 2002 US Open semi-final. There was an 11 year gap between them. Federer only has 5 years on Nadal and people want to act like it's 80 year old Granparer vs 25 year old energetic Rafa.
No humility on this board.

Edit: fixed the ages.

Last edited by Greatness; 05-23-2012 at 11:17 PM.
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post #452 of 1591 (permalink) Old 05-23-2012, 11:06 PM
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Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

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It worries me a moderator believes this.
Why does it worry you?

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Originally Posted by Looner View Post
I also adore the logic of I-won't-form-an-opinion-because-someone-who-has-played-the-sport-knows-better when it is obvious the guy is not in his peak form. I mean, come on...
What did you think I meant when I said "Sampras is being polite to his friend"?
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post #453 of 1591 (permalink) Old 05-23-2012, 11:19 PM
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Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

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Originally Posted by Greatness View Post
Only a pretentious person starts an argument assuming his point is more valid than that of others.
I have said several times that Federer's movement has declined.

How many 24/25 year old were beating Sampras, Agassi and now Federer consistently? Do you watch other sports than tennis? You know Michael Jordan won 3 championships and multiple MVP awards in his early thirties? Did you know that 39 year old Jordan scored 51 points in a game? How many young, super athletic basketball players manage that in today's league? When you're fucking good, you're fucking good.

Players make adjustments because they know they won't be young forever, they become less reliant on their athletic ability and improve other parts of their game; they become more crafty with their shot selection or become more decisive when hitting shots, take the ball early etc. Simply saying he's older that's why he's losing is an insult to the fine players who have worked very hard to surpass him in some areas of the game.




Your argument holds very little weight because young Rafa was still handing breadsticks to Federer in his prime. Why is it so hard to accept that people improve their skills and find a way to win against players who used to dominate? The argument can go on forever but so far, your argument is only based on "he's old, that's why he losing"; 35 year old Agassi beat 24 year old number 1 Hewitt in 2002 US Open semi-final. There was an 11 year gap between them. Federer only has 5 years on Nadal and people want to act like it's 80 year old Granparer vs 25 year old energetic Rafa.
No humility on this board.
First of all, do not compare basketball to tennis. Its laughable. Talk just about tennis. You have admitted that Federer's movement has declined. THAT IS WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT. DECLINE!! GET IT IN YOUR THICK SKULL. Nobody is taking credit away from Rafa & Novak. I do not see other players beating Federer regularly. Only Berdych, Tsonga & Soderling have beaten him in recent times in Grand Slams other than Rafa & Novak. This is also a sign of his decline. Am positive Federer in his prime would not have lost to Berdych & Tsonga at Wimbledon, of all places. Agassi was playing fantastic tennis for his age, no doubt. But no one in their right mind would think it was still Agassi in his prime. Even Federer defeated Raonic & Tomic who are many years younger to him, that does not mean he is the same player. He is unable to defeat Rafa & Novak because they are formidable players not just pretty good players like the rest of the top 10. But at the same time, if all 3 were at the same young age, you would not be seeing Rafa/Noval finals 4 slams in a row, I can guarantee that.It would be shared equally between Fed, Rafa & Novak.
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post #454 of 1591 (permalink) Old 05-23-2012, 11:32 PM
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Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

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I agree. It's only fedtards who want to believe Federer is in the decline to justify his losses to Novak and Rafa.
Lol , if you see Roger in his prime, is clear that he is not playing like before and is normal..he is 30..almost 31, he was better and also conditions were faster than now, but he is still playing good tennis and I think that is what Sampras is saying..that Roger is still playing good tennis to win grand slams.

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post #455 of 1591 (permalink) Old 05-23-2012, 11:36 PM
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Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

Didn't all of you admit Roger played his best ever clay match against Rafa last year? As I recall, Fed had chances to win all 3 of the first 3 sets. And movement is most important on clay.
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post #456 of 1591 (permalink) Old 05-23-2012, 11:44 PM
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Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

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First of all, do not compare basketball to tennis. Its laughable. Talk just about tennis.
First of all, old age causing decline is not exclusive to tennis; it applies to all sports so I can make any comparison to prove my point.


Quote:
You have admitted that Federer's movement has declined. THAT IS WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT. DECLINE!! GET IT IN YOUR THICK SKULL. Nobody is taking credit away from Rafa & Novak. I do not see other players beating Federer regularly. Only Berdych, Tsonga & Soderling have beaten him in recent times in Grand Slams other than Rafa & Novak. This is also a sign of his decline. Am positive Federer in his prime would not have lost to Berdych & Tsonga at Wimbledon, of all places. Agassi was playing fantastic tennis for his age, no doubt. But no one in their right mind would think it was still Agassi in his prime. Even Federer defeated Raonic & Tomic who are many years younger to him, that does not mean he is the same player.
2004 Federer lost to Dominik Hrbatý in Cincinnati and to Berdych at the Olympics. You think Nole 2.0 and Clay Monster would struggle against that Federer? I highly doubt that. 2006 Federer (92-5) lost 4 times to Rafa and 1 time to Andy Murray; Rafa beat him at Dubai that year when he was nowhere near as good on hardcourts as he was in 2009 (AO) and 2010 (USO). There's no denying that prime Federer is a special player but he did not face players on par with the current Novak/Rafa/Murray in most of his big wins so he looked really good blasting winners against a much weaker opposition.

Quote:
He is unable to defeat Rafa & Novak because they are formidable players not just pretty good players like the rest of the top 10. But at the same time, if all 3 were at the same young age, you would not be seeing Rafa/Noval finals 4 slams in a row, I can guarantee that.It would be shared equally between Fed, Rafa & Novak.
You can guarantee nothing, it's just your wishful thinking. I also can't guarantee nothing so let's not go that route.
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post #457 of 1591 (permalink) Old 05-23-2012, 11:52 PM
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Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

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2004 Federer lost to Dominik Hrbatý in Cincinnati and to Berdych at the Olympics. You think Nole 2.0 and Clay Monster would struggle against that Federer? I highly doubt that. 2006 Federer (92-5) lost 4 times to Rafa and 1 time to Andy Murray; Rafa beat him at Dubai that year when he was nowhere near as good on hardcourts as he was in 2009 (AO) and 2010 (USO). There's no denying that prime Federer is a special player but he did not face players on par with the current Novak/Rafa/Murray in most of his big wins so he looked really good blasting winners against a much weaker opposition.



You can guarantee nothing, it's just your wishful thinking. I also can't guarantee nothing so let's not go that route.
You're forgetting Federer had just won Toronto and had to play Hrbaty two days later. His sixth match in eight days. Your beloved Nole hasn't had that problem because the byes were brought in before he reached the top of the game.

Peak Fed, with the movement, shotmaking and all-round package would put Djoker in his place. Nadal would always be awkward because of the match-up.

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post #458 of 1591 (permalink) Old 05-23-2012, 11:53 PM
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Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

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First of all, old age causing decline is not exclusive to tennis; it applies to all sports so I can make any comparison to prove my point.




2004 Federer lost to Dominik Hrbatý in Cincinnati and to Berdych at the Olympics. You think Nole 2.0 and Clay Monster would struggle against that Federer? I highly doubt that. 2006 Federer (92-5) lost 4 times to Rafa and 1 time to Andy Murray; Rafa beat him at Dubai that year when he was nowhere near as good on hardcourts as he was in 2009 (AO) and 2010 (USO). There's no denying that prime Federer is a special player but he did not face players on par with the current Novak/Rafa/Murray in most of his big wins so he looked really good blasting winners against a much weaker opposition.


Even Roddick put up a much better fight than Murray in his Slam finals against Federer.

FYI: Novak's achievements (or Rafa's or anyone else's) are not lessened or magnified by Federer being in his prime or not.

Federer succeeded where Sampras failed; he hasn't let the game pass him by in 'old' age and has remained competitive and adapted to the new circumstances. That only adds to his legend.
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post #459 of 1591 (permalink) Old 05-23-2012, 11:54 PM
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Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

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But at the same time, if all 3 were at the same young age, you would not be seeing Rafa/Noval finals 4 slams in a row, I can guarantee that.It would be shared equally between Fed, Rafa & Novak.
That argument can go both ways, i.e. the bulk of Federer's 16 GS titles could have been shared equally between the three if they were the same age (especially if Djokovic had sorted out his physical issues earlier in his career). Federer's main trouble with Nadal and Djokovic has never been the age difference, it's always been about their ability to defend like rubber ducks against shots that would have been breathtaking winners against any other player, as well as their abilty to turn their defence into attack by exploiting Federer's weaknesses in a way that other players haven't been able to do on a consistent enough basis. In terms of pure offense, however, Federer is still at 30 years age the #1 player and he beats everyone else on that account alone. The big difference in 2011 wasn't that Federer had suddenly declined compared to 2010 or 2009, on the contrary, the difference was that Djokovic had managed to overcome his own physical limitations in 2011 by which he could was finally able to fully utilize his defensive skills against Federer. This doesn't preclude the possibility that Federer has declined somewhat from physical peak, but his game has always been more about his technique and execution of shots than about him pushing himself to his physical limits. That's probably why he has almost never been injured. I'm open to the possibility that his reflexes may be slightly slower at 30 than they were at 25, but the brain of a physically healthy 30 year old isn't all that worse off compared to the brain of a 25 year old. It boils down to speculation which might or might not have some truth to it. It could just as well be a case of him going through what any other player goes through, namely oscillations in his form.
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post #460 of 1591 (permalink) Old 05-23-2012, 11:55 PM
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Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

You people forget FEDERER HIMSELF ADMITTED TO BE PLAYING NOW BETTER THAN EVER. Now you tell me that he is also marketing tennis...



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post #461 of 1591 (permalink) Old 05-23-2012, 11:56 PM
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Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

Are Sampras and Federer even friends? Or is it like Federer Tiger friendship where they did business and sort of pretended to be friends before Tiger had his psychotic break with those women?

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post #462 of 1591 (permalink) Old 05-23-2012, 11:57 PM
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Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

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That argument can go both ways, i.e. the bulk of Federer's 16 GS titles could have been shared equally between the three if they were the same age (especially if Djokovic had sorted out his physical issues earlier in his career). Federer's main trouble with Nadal and Djokovic has never been the age difference, it's always been about their ability to defend like rubber ducks against shots that would have been breathtaking winners against any other player, as well as their abilty to turn their defence into attack by exploiting Federer's weaknesses in a way that other players haven't been able to on a consistent basis. In terms of pure offense, Federer is still at 30 years age the #1 player on tour and he beats everyone else on that account alone. The big difference in 2011 wasn't that Federer had suddenly declined compared to 2010 or 2009, on the contrary, the difference was that Djokovic had managed to overcome his own physical limitations in 2011 by which he could was finally able to fully utilize his defensive skills against Federer. This doesn't preclude the possibility that Federer has declined somewhat from physical peak, but his game has always been more about his technique and execution of shots than about him pushing himself to his physical limits. That's probably why he has almost never been injured. I'm open to the possibility that his reflexes may be slightly slower at 30 than they were at 25, but the brain of a physically healthy 30 year old isn't all that worse off compared to the brain of a 25 year old. It boils down to speculation which might or might not have some truth to it. It could just as well be a case of him going through what any other player goes through, namely oscillations in his form.
Now, you've said it. End of debate. Your post is perfect.



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post #463 of 1591 (permalink) Old 05-23-2012, 11:59 PM
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Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

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You're forgetting Federer had just won Toronto and had to play Hrbaty two days later. His sixth match in eight days. Your beloved Nole hasn't had that problem because the byes were brought in before he reached the top of the game.

Peak Fed, with the movement, shotmaking and all-round package would put Djoker in his place. Nadal would always be awkward because of the match-up.
More excuses for young Federer losing to lesser players despite his "movement, shotmaking and all-round package".
Novak played back to back 4 hours plus 5 setters to win the AO this year. You're telling me young, super energetic Federer with superior shotmaking couldn't take down Hrbatý in a best of 3 because he was tired? GTFO.
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post #464 of 1591 (permalink) Old 05-23-2012, 11:59 PM
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Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

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You people forget FEDERER HIMSELF ADMITTED TO BE PLAYING NOW BETTER THAN EVER. Now you tell me that he is also marketing tennis...
Sampras thought he was playing better than ever in the year when Barry Cowan (yes, Barry Cowan!) took two sets off him at Wimbledon.

Tells you all you need to know really.

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post #465 of 1591 (permalink) Old 05-24-2012, 12:01 AM
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Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

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You're forgetting Federer had just won Toronto and had to play Hrbaty two days later. His sixth match in eight days. Your beloved Nole hasn't had that problem because the byes were brought in before he reached the top of the game.

Peak Fed, with the movement, shotmaking and all-round package would put Djoker in his place. Nadal would always be awkward because of the match-up.
This is as exaggerated, extremist and unprovable as the opposite argument (that Federer is still in his prime) tbf. Even young Novak was hanging with Federer from the baseline back in 2007. Not saying that Federer wouldn't beat him (have no idea what would happen nor do I care that much), but this is clearly a very partisan view.

Yes, Federer in his peak was a fantastic player, but he wasn't invincible by any means, even if it is as close as it got in recent tennis history.
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