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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-02-2013, 05:27 AM Thread Starter
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Forums democracy is the one rule which all other rules derive from

All major decisions: banning the ACC, permabanning a poster, appointing new mods, closing a popular thread, etc need to be democratically decided. Whether this is done through a poll, a voting and discussion thread, some kind of contest, or a new mod system in which moderators can be instantly removed through majority decision should itself be democratically decided. Personally I would prefer a poll for all major decisions.

All the unpopular decisions and all the lack of trust and anger that has built up recently can be traced to the lack of democracy and the lack of mod accountability on this forum.
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-02-2013, 05:28 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Forums democracy is the one rule which all other rules derive from

Everyone else who has posted so far is thinking too small and is being drawn into a trap. It's quite easy for the mods to find someone who wants to keep the ACC banned or ban even more posters and treat that opinion as equally valid as the opposite opinions. This gives the false sense of fairness when the game is already fixed (since only one thread will be open for each opinion, giving the illusion of equal support for both sides). I'm American so you see this on Fox News and American politics all the time. False equivalence, complex issues reduced to a false dichotomy, and a fake "fairness" between a reasonable opinion and an absurd one (reevaluating the ban system vs. even harsher and more authoritarian rules have already been presented as equally valid). Only when there's a democratic system and not an extreme centralization of power can this propaganda game be overcome.
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-02-2013, 05:31 AM
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Re: Forums democracy is the one rule which all other rules derive from

Quote:
Originally Posted by SliceAce View Post
All major decisions: banning the ACC, permabanning a poster, appointing new mods, closing a popular thread, etc need to be democratically decided. Whether this is done through a poll, a voting and discussion thread, some kind of contest, or a new mod system in which moderators can be instantly removed through majority decision should itself be democratically decided. Personally I would prefer a poll for all major decisions.

All the unpopular decisions and all the lack of trust and anger that has built up recently can be traced to the lack of democracy and the lack of mod accountability on this forum.
so if a poster in here is more Popular or has more friends its pretty clear they will vote againt a perban while others who has less friends will be voted yes

i dont think posters voting on bans of other users is fair, its a perfect way to kivk out ppl others dont like.

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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-02-2013, 05:34 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Forums democracy is the one rule which all other rules derive from

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so if a poster in here is more Popular or has more friends its pretty clear they will vote againt a perban while others who has less friends will be voted yes

i dont think posters voting on bans of other users is fair, its a perfect way to kivk out ppl others dont like.
This is in fact the definition of democracy, that more "popular" decisions are those that are implemented. Whether you think in specific instances, like a permaban, some kind of modified democracy (like consensus or 2/3 majority) be implemented is worth discussing, but that you presume popularity (meaning majority support) is a bad thing is deeply disturbing.

e: This is only the case when the system is not working. Posters would never vote to ban someone, just like we don't live in the Hunger Games and vote to kill people in real life. Only when a negative decision has to be made, such as removing a major thread (the player mocking threads for example) or permabanning someone is voting a recourse.
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-02-2013, 05:41 AM
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Re: Forums democracy is the one rule which all other rules derive from

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Originally Posted by SliceAce View Post
This is in fact the definition of democracy, that more "popular" decisions are those that are implemented. Whether you think in specific instances, like a permaban, some kind of modified democracy (like consensus or 2/3 majority) be implemented is worth discussing, but that you presume popularity (meaning majority support) is a bad thing is deeply disturbing.
so as i see it (Please correct me if im wrong)if i said a few racist or discriminatory comments over and over most chances i will never get a ban or a per ban bc i have friends who will back me up no matter what.
i hardly think its fair that a ban should be by the popularity of the User, Indeed in a democracy the majority rules over the minority but where the protection of the minority right?



I do think there are things that shoild be voted, ur totally right about that but bans arnt one of them IMHO

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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-02-2013, 05:57 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Forums democracy is the one rule which all other rules derive from

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so as i see it (Please correct me if im wrong)if i said a few racist or discriminatory comments over and over most chances i will never get a ban or a per ban bc i have friends who will back me up no matter what.
i hardly think its fair that a ban should be by the popularity of the User, Indeed in a democracy the majority rules over the minority but where the protection of the minority right?



I do think there are things that shoild be voted, ur totally right about that but bans arnt one of them IMHO
Do you believe your "friends" are the majority of the entire MTF userbase (or at least those who would be willing to vote)? It's irrelevant anyway, we're only talking about major decisions like permabans. Most bans, thread deletions, and day to day administration would be run by the mods and admins since it's not really feasible to have democratic decision making on everything (even though this is ideal and should be slowly worked towards).

There are no minority rights to speak of, we're purely talking about a negative power here. The passive power to prevent a ban is not the same as the active power to ban someone. You're not really understanding here, and tbh you're derailing the thread with it. Not to be rude, but please take a course on political science or something here, I really don't feel like describing the difference between negative and positive rights, consensus vs. direct democracy, popularity vs. majority consent.

I presume most people here are from democratic countries, in which the mod system of absolute power in a few individuals is unthinkable. Israel is one of those countries. That this is unthinkable on the internet, and even beyond that people don't even understand how their own systems work or the philosophy behind democracy, is
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-02-2013, 06:05 AM
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Re: Forums democracy is the one rule which all other rules derive from

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Originally Posted by SliceAce View Post
Do you believe your "friends" are the majority of the entire MTF userbase (or at least those who would be willing to vote)? It's irrelevant anyway, we're only talking about major decisions like permabans. Most bans, thread deletions, and day to day administration would be run by the mods and admins since it's not really feasible to have democratic decision making on everything (even though this is ideal and should be slowly worked towards).

There are no minority rights to speak of, we're purely talking about a negative power here. The passive power to prevent a ban is not the same as the active power to ban someone. You're not really understanding here, and tbh you're derailing the thread with it. Not to be rude, but please take a course on political science or something here, I really don't feel like describing the difference between negative and positive rights, consensus vs. direct democracy, popularity vs. majority consent.

I presume most people here are from democratic countries, in which the mod system of absolute power in a few individuals is unthinkable. Israel is one of those countries. That this is unthinkable on the internet, and even beyond that people don't even understand how their own systems work or the philosophy behind democracy, is
I dont think we Understand each other at all .
I dont have "friends" who are the majority of the entire MTF userbase, not even close but i do know of ppl who would be happy to vote for a person who they dont like.

i will let others speak their minds.

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The reason why the world is in chaos is because things are being loved, and people are being used."

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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-02-2013, 09:12 AM
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Re: Forums democracy is the one rule which all other rules derive from

Quote:
Originally Posted by SliceAce View Post
I presume most people here are from democratic countries, in which the mod system of absolute power in a few individuals is unthinkable. Israel is one of those countries. That this is unthinkable on the internet, and even beyond that people don't even understand how their own systems work or the philosophy behind democracy, is
If I follow your metaphor correctly, wouldn't a structure with popularly-elected mods and referenda only for major rule changes be closer to a western democracy? We're not doing much more than electing representatives that will, then, deal with the day-to-day running of the structure in real life.

I see some problems with the practical part of the idea, mainly the misrepresentation of the general opinion of the MTF user by that of the majority of people willing to vote in a poll, and the flurries of double accounts we would see whenever a poll would be open. But I definitely agree with the general principle of bringing the user closer to the decisions, just not sure how to do that.

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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-02-2013, 01:25 PM
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Re: Forums democracy is the one rule which all other rules derive from

For some things a public referendum might be appropriate if performed correctly. But such things are usually done once a proposal has been thoroughly fleshed out and approved by a smaller representative body, before going to the general public for a vote.

I don't think polling the entire forum for important decisions regarding specific individuals such as banning is the thing to do for many reasons. I don't think the active users in the forum are necessarily fairly represented to start with. What happens when only 10 or 20% of a slanted representation vote?

I also think many people in public polls (where you can see the vote, while voting) can be swayed by published results while voting is ongoing. I've never liked the American election exit polling for this reason.

And finally, the majority can be drastically in error when led by a charismatic few who get the sheep to follow them. It can also lead to mob-like behavior - i.e. human bullying by the majority.

I also think the admins/mods are surely capable of handling the daily sort of ordinary decisions without needing a vote.

For major decisions that require voting, I suggest x number of "jurors" be required. Of those, 50% should be admin/mods randomly selected. The other 50% should be users who shall be randomly selected. I think we all have a certain responsibility to the site and should be available to serve as "jury" members occasionally. Then the "accused" shall have a right to object "within reason" if there is a certain member(s) of the jury (including admin/mod, within limits) whom he/she thinks will be prejudiced against him. A good reason must be presented, just because someone is a certain player's fan isn't enough. But if the user can show a tendency of animosity via posts, PM's, bad reps, or the like, then they should have the right to veto that juror.

Given this, I don't know if the vote should be required to be unanimous or not. These aren't criminal trials. Perhaps it depends on the severity of the punishment. An online jury has different dynamics from a real jury where you are breathing right next to each other, have eye contact, etc. I do think major decisions should require at least 2/3 and not a simple majority.

I also posted a form of this in the keep the permanent ban - The Bulldog in Snowwy's synopsis of Bulldog's thread.

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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-02-2013, 08:36 PM
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Re: Forums democracy is the one rule which all other rules derive from

Slice Ace makesmany very good points.

Question is, will the moderators actually give a shit about what the people want or just tell us to continue to eat cake?

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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-09-2013, 11:40 AM
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Re: Forums democracy is the one rule which all other rules derive from

I think only major rule changes should have a poll. Smaller changes like clarifying rules should be up to moderators. For example, I'm not sure if cancelling ACC was a rule change, I guess rules are just interpreted so that a game like it is insulting other posters. And that's OK for me even though I'd like to get ACC back. But it's up to moderators.

Also, just like I posted in another thread, I'd support moderator elections. That would make also moderator's decisions more democratic, they're selected by posters.

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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-13-2013, 12:56 AM
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Re: Forums democracy is the one rule which all other rules derive from

Democracy is better than the communism the mods shove on us atm, that's for sure.

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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-14-2013, 11:29 PM
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Re: Forums democracy is the one rule which all other rules derive from

Forum democracy is an oxymoron

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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-14-2013, 11:42 PM
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Re: Forums democracy is the one rule which all other rules derive from

Well, I am glad permabanning is not up for MTF users to decide, or else we would still have garbage like Mugician and Failman posting here.

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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-23-2013, 01:08 AM
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Re: Forums democracy is the one rule which all other rules derive from

Thanks for your suggestions.

Sorry, the forum will continue to be run the way it is with admin and moderators making decisions.

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